Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Woman fined over £900 for dropping cigarette butt
A woman was fined over £900 last week for dropping a cigarette on the pavement and failing to pay her penalty notice.
Cllr Nilgun Canver, Cabinet Member for Neighbourhoods,said:
"People seem to think it's ok to drop cigarette butts in the street. Well it's not ok. It costs the council a lot of money to sweep up this litter and I hope this fine will make people think twice before throwing a butt away in future."
On Thursday the 5th of August Haringey Council Enforcement Officers spotted Kristina Djemal of 13 Charmwood Road, Enfield, throwing away a cigarette in Wood Green High Road and making no attempt to pick it up.
The officers were in the middle a litter patrol exercise with local police at the time.
Djemal was advised that dropping the cigarette was a littering offence and issued her with a fixed penalty notice of £75.
Despite reminder letters being sent, the fixed penalty notice was not paid, and the case was referred for prosecution.
Although Djemal failed to turn up at court on December 1st, Tottenham Magistrates found her guilty of littering and she was fined £525.00, with full costs of £382.00. A collection order was also granted, providing for bailiffs to visit the home to collect the money.
Tags for Forum Posts: litter
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Anette on
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@ StephenBln: Just a small point: with personal freedom comes responsibility. If people can't be responsible with their litter in general then they will have to accept there will be measures put in place to stop the minority making life unpleasant for the vast majority og responsible people I hope we still have around here.
If people don't like fines - DON'T LITTER IN THE FIRST PLACE.
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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No need to patent the personal mobile ashtray, they already exist. Google it.
I'm curious, are there no laws against littering in Germany, how are people dealt with who commit minor infringements of the law? I seem to recall being rather severely dealt with by a German policeman for jaywalking, for example, an offence hardly heard of in this country.
I appreciate what you say about loss of liberties,I don't disagree we have some draconian laws around public order and surveillance, but it is not a loss of liberty to be stopped from littering and the 1990 littering act isn't one of those draconian laws.
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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brrrrr .. where to start?
I agree it's not a loss of liberty to be stopped littering - I object at the way it is done. I think you'll going to have to accept that you have some lost generations.
Here, kids are taught at school (and by example) from an early age not litter, as well as respect for other's property and environment (more difficult in the former GDR, where a generation grew up after losing respect for their teachers etc. in 1989).
We also have many more re-cycling facilities and deposits on cans and bottles. We don't have a problem with litter, but as I have said before, we do with grafitti. Fly-tipping happens but is minimal, because it isn't really necessary because of the availablity of facilties. I also think that quick action is necessary.. it's not quite so easy to litter a clean steet as it is if there are already tons of it lying around.
The jaywalking.. that's an old chesnut! I haven't seen that happen in years. We do have laws about jaywalking and beware, your insurance won't pay out if you have an accident crossing the road within 300m of a controlled crossing. A friend of mine from the UK was also caught up such a confrontation with a policeman here in Berlin in the 1980s - but I was never sure if it was to do with him being black or not. I've also seen parents shout at people crossing on red in front of their children, for giving a bad example.
We have a Berlin-wide refuse agency BSR (Berliner Stadtreinigung) responsible for street cleaning, recycling and snow clearance.. and they have built up a special relationship with Berliners as a competent and hard working company through very attractive advertising. This one is called 'no ice on Berlin's streets':
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/2635037/Geile_Werbung_von_der_BSR_XD
and the result: thursday: http://www.flickr.com/photos/isarsteve/5246863154/
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Well it happened to me and being shouted out in my own personal kettle by an armed police officer was one of my less happy memories of Germany. He only ceased when I stuttered out in German that I was an English tourist then muttered some more at me in German before riding off on his big motorbike. This was not Berlin, may have been Cologne.
You know, all of the things you have outlined above we have here, education at school, lots of adverts, plenty of facilities, although sadly not the deposit system and yet it still happens...a lot and you don't answer the question about what happens to those who do litter, are you honestly telling us it never happens? Or that there are no laws to deal with that eventuality? If I threw down something in front of a German police officer and refused to pick it up, as happened in this case, nothing would happen to me?..they would wave me on with an indulgent libertarian smile?
Flytipping is tied in with frequent turn over of tenants and bad landlords, at least around here. A couple of weeks ago, I caught a landlord, middle-aged, white male with a van dumping wood in the street. I challenged him, asked him why he couldn't remove it in his van with the other stuff, and how he thought it would be removed if he left it there. After a bit of bluster, he picked it up and away. Why should he care? He doesn't live here, he won't see the mess, he probably doesn't even pay Haringey council tax.
It is a serious issue but you won't catch people that easily, I've tried. People are fined if they are caught or evidence brought against them but it is tied up with other deeper issues and can't be dealt with in isolation.
In truth, I have my doubts about how effective fines are in the long term, although their shock value in the short term clearly rattles some cages. Fines can actually be counterproductive. There is the now famous case of the nursery struggling to get parents to turn up on time to pick up their kids, so they started fining after the first 15 mins. The problem actually got worse as parents saw the fine as not as a punishment but as a premium payment for being allowed to be late. Before parents felt guilty for inconveniencing the staff, after they saw the fine as payment for their time.
I've heard similar views expressed over parking fines, i.e. "If I get caught, so what? Plenty of times I wasn't"
Yet there must be some sanction? In St Albans, for some reason, all parking charges/fines not collected for a week, the result utter chaos as people parked everywhere and anywhere...if that situation had continued would people have begun to act sensibly and set their own standards (I.'ve seen it in Denmark)or would people demand something be done, like...er..parking fines? Maybe it's a cultural thing but the Brits do like someone else to do something about it rather than self regulating. Can they be changed?
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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If Singaporean methods can bring cleaner streets, bring 'em on – maybe there's something we could learn from. In the short term there is only fining.
I am just disgusted at seeing people spit in the streets, drop chewing gum and litter – all of which we have to pay to have cleaned up, quite apart from the distaste and unsightliness. No one should have any right to do any of these things without decent society saying no!
This has got nothing to do with personal liberty and everything to do with selfishness, thoughtlessness and irresponsibility.
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I'm sorry Clive, since your gave up your position as 'warder of the public purse (Council Tax)' by supporting Boris' doomed new wooden RM model, I'm afraid I can't take anything you write seriously anymore.
You really do fall for the spin don't you! Singapore indeed!
Of course, it has to do with liberty. When trumped up council officials imagine they can pick on one person just to prove they are doing a job. If they'd had ten people up for the 900 fine, it would have been a different matter. But just one?
No, they decided over their breakfast to make sure they got an example.. that's not democracy.
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Clive, I agree with you 100%!
Hopefully this reply will be left alone and not removed..?
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Permalink Reply by HoL Site Admin on
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None of your comments have been removed Anette. If any comment is removed we write and tell you. You might be getting confused with our editing latest activity sometimes when one thread is dominating, but the comments themselves are left intact.
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Sorry Liz, I know it sounds like a cop out.. but in nearly 30 years here, I've never seen people stopped for dropping litter. We have state/city police (Berliner Polizei), federal police (Bundespolizei) and local area (Borough) wardens (Ordnungsamt). http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idThread=171788&...
The last are the ones that give out parking tickets and control public behaviour such as riding bikes where you're not supposed to etc., But litter dropping? It such a minuscule problem I really can't say. BTW, your armed policeman 'on a bike' was a traffic cop- that's why he was so keen on keeping the roadway clear. http://www.flickr.com/photos/isarsteve/3472016708/
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Would "It such a minuscule problem" be a clue as to why there's not the same need for enforcement in Germany?
It's without doubt that different social norms operate in Germany & England. Is it possible that the two societies have a different attitude to the acceptability of littering?
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Thank you Hugh and once more to John.. the theme here is 'Cigarette Butts' and not litter.. and once again I say, those that invented the smoking ban obviously didn't have any thoughts as to what would happen once the ban was in place.
That's is where the problem lies.. Calling people peasants doesn't help and anyway I imagine there were such people in the area long before you all moved in..
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Stephen, you wrote "I know it sounds like a cop out.. but in nearly 30 years here, I've never seen people stopped for dropping litter."
Now you write "the theme here is 'Cigarette Butts' and not litter".
What a 'permitted' topic of focus ad what isn't? It's make your mind up time!
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