Harringay online

Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

I hope all you who have the vote in Harringay will remember tonight ( and certainly other nights to come ) and at the next election vote out the incompetent shower responsible for the introduction of the LTN.

My weekly 5-minute journey from Wightman Road to Green Lanes took 45 minutes, including  30 minutes to go the length of Hampden Road. Yes, I know that there was a burst water main. But in happier times traffic would have been distributed across the roads now blocked off and not confined to Green Lanes. Yes, I know that I could have taken a bus to sit in the same traffic jam as I did this evening but in any case there aren't any buses between my house and the bottom of Effingham Road. 

I understand the concerns of those residents living in the LTN who hope that the pollution in their streets will be reduced but don't the residents of Green Lanes, Turnpike Lane and Wightman Road breathe ? don't their children have lungs ?. Where did the Council think the LTN traffic would go ? 

And please don't suggest to this disabled person that I could have cycled.  I couldn't.

Tags for Forum Posts: low traffic neighbourhoods, traffic

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I've often contemplated this problem of the car commuter - other cities solve the problem by Park and Ride - not a solution for Haringey (and indeed Harringay) but if a number of strategically placed Park and Ride Parks were located NEXT to suburban ends of the tube and rail stations  or with free buses on to transport hubs with subsidised travel by rail/tube onwards a lot of commuter traffic could be diverted.  Visiting Cambridge is a pleasure with strategically placed Park and Ride round the city and free transport into the city centre.  London would need a larger scale solution but we are a larger city...

The businesses around Bowes Park are really suffering, after having being closed or only partially operating over the past 2.5 years. The impact on them has to be taken into consideration, the impact of all concerned. I want cleaner, breathable air, with less traffic (not just fewer cars) but I think current LTNs need to be reconsidered and other measures brought in. I doubt know the answers but what might be good for some members of the community might be bad even financially disastrous for others 

Local businesses always over-estimate the numbers of people who drive to their premises. And I'm definitely dubious about businesses who claim that its the minor traffic controls of an LTN rather than inflation or covid or the cost of living crisis which has damaged their business. 

Best to go and speak to some of the business owners first hand and they'll explain their situation Elizabeth. 

I'm a non- driver btw, never passed a test and never owned a car. I've managed to get around all my life on foot and public transport but I understand that for some people driving is necessary for work or because of mobility problems etc. Empathy, looking at things from all perspectives as many here have suggested all good. Perhaps the council should have a real consultation and reconsider ways of reducing traffic and pollution. Hope springs eternal! All the best folks

Happy to have empathy for them but ever since a shop that was actually repainting in one of the Haringey LTNs was widely announced on social media to have closed as a result of the LTNs (which was a complete fabrication) I take comments on social media re any effect on businesses with a massive pinch of salt. None of the long standing businesses in Highbury who moaned most about the LTNs seem to have gone anywhere despite the LTNs being around well over a year now. Its definitely way too early to discern any long term effect in Haringey.

Years ago a Harringay Online member challenged me to read Jan Gehl the Danish urbanist. I did and one of the things I learned was that many businesses in Copenhagen opposed the initial proposals to pedestrianise what became the successful Strøget experiment. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Str%C3%B8get#History

Should the fears and risks to Haringey business owners be taken seriously?
Of course they should. And ways found to reduce risk if possible. But trust is needed and Haringey's record in supporting businesses is very patchy. It has played favourites.

But as people in this thread have pointed out, there are dozens of risk factors besides LTNs.
To go back to Copenhagen, for people without time to read books, Jan Gehl can be found on YouTube. He's included in a fascinating video from about twenty years ago. It begins with historical footage of New York's packed streets with pushcarts and dead horses, Then takes us to 20th Century New York, Paris, London and Copenhagen. For me a key learning point was that policy choices are possible which make modern cities better and more enjoyable places to live, work, to bring up kids, and build communities. 
Here's a clip.
https://youtu.be/rstEWMD89L8?t=283

I downloaded a longer version (56 minutes) but can no longer find it online. Here's one quote by Jan Gehl which I jotted down. He advised any city:

"To try to take the people in the city more seriously. Just as seriously as traffic of cars. All these cities have traffic Departments which get all these data all the time about traffic. They know everything.  When it comes to people most cities know nothing."

With my apologies to Michael Anderson, in the same longer video Jan Gehl advises cities to take small steps. In Copenhagen he says, they took a little step every year for forty years. They didn't announce one master plan.  "Because you will lose the election right now. Nobody would believe it would work."

Unfortunately we don't have forty years.

I’ve been around in the area long enough to remember Green Lanes traders saying that 

  • The introduction of yellow lines on Green Lanes would kill business - it didn't
  • The introduction of a bus lane on Green Lanes would kill businesses - it didn't
  • The introduction of controlled parking on The Ladder and in The Gardens would kill businesses- it’s didn’t 
  • Making Ladder Streets one way would kill businesses - it didn't
  • The temporary restrictions on Wightman Road during the bridge works would kill businesses - it didn’t

Businesses constantly overestimate the amount of business they get from those driving to their shops

Absolutely right there  - I first lived on the Ladder in 1986 and the businesses have been complaining since at least then about any and all traffic restrictions. 

what makes traffic if not cars?

Cars are not the only thing in traffic.

Vans, not just white vans but many other delivering things to shops, cafes, pubs etc plus there has been a huge increase in online shopping and deliveries hasn't there? The number of delivery vans has really risen. Cutting down on online shopping would help reduce traffic. Then there are those big lorries, HGVs moving and delivering lots of things here and there. Ambulances and other emergency vehicles as well as refuse trucks and others. Also we have motorbikes, bikes and a few other things such as e-scooters. 

when was the last time you saw motorbikes, bikes, e-scooters in a line of traffic? Never, they use the side of the road and pass trafffic. 

If you think the rise in online shopping is causing traffic, good luck then solving this issue. 

I was merely pointing out what I see in the traffic whether I'm walking along the pavement or sat on buses. And yes I have seen and do see bikes etc in a line of traffic. Sometimes at the front of it such as at pedestrian crossings when the lights are green for the pedestrians and they are eagerly waiting for the lights to change. I was raising the issue of online shopping. I have no power, unfortunately, to solve any of these problems but it has to be admitted that if people bought less online and walked to local shops there would be fewer vans. Although the drivers would then lose jobs which is an issue. Actions and consequences, they all need considering. 

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