Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Lammy calls for People's Vote
Possible options are;
* the brexit deal, if there is one
* no deal
* stay in the EU
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45616308
Time needed to ratify, organise and campaign for such a 'vote' would take around 10 months according to constitutional experts so, Article 50/29th March would have to be delayed, if possible.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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It’s not about appeasing. Over 50% of the population will quite legitimately ask why their view was sought, they gave it, and then it was discarded as not being the right one. However much you or I may not want the outcome we had, we had it.
Turn it around and if Farage was calling for a second referendum because of the lies and misinformation during the campaign (there were some whoppers that came from both sides) and that the closeness of the outcome to stay invalidated the vote, just how would you feel.
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Permalink Reply by DavidJ on
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Cameron's proposal for a referendum was in order to appease UKIP and therefore protect his electoral chances - this is not controversial (what else was he doing??). We are already in the territory of appeasement. How far would you go? If 'the people' decide to round up and chuck out EU citizens (which is certainly what some want) - is that OK?
Farage and the other right wing popularists would with absolute certainty be challenging a reverse result. Indeed they would be challenging and agitating against any move towards a Norway style agreement (despite what they said in the campaign). They would not stop. They cheated and lied on a massive scale - in ways that undermined any reasonable notion of democracy.
This is a fight.
We have begun to have proper debate about what Brexit might actually mean - setting aside fantasies. It would perfectly reasonable to have vote based on the real options facing us. Brexiteers cannot object to that on democratic grounds.
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Think for a moment about the implications of what you are saying. In effect it’s that you and I and all the others who voted to remain were some how cleverer and more clued up than the 52 or whatever percent of the electorate who were somehow not intelligent enough to see through the lies and mis-information in a vote that had one of the biggest turn outs since the Second World War.
It’s an attitude that makes me despair. We honestly do live I some kind of London bubble and many people here don’t have the faintest idea what people think and what their experiences are in other parts of the country. My own family live in the north east and all of them voted leave as they see they EU as having no relevance to them, their lives and their futures. People voted one way or another for a myriad of reasons but they did vote and in unprecedented numbers. What message is actually being given to them? Are we saying that the democratic process is only democratic as far as it suits me or you?
We absolutely can have a say on what this country is going to look like from March 2019. We can do that by having a general election and voting in the party that will deliver the outcome we prefer. For all the window dressing the People’s Vote idea is seen an old fashioned “Well I didn’t win so how about the best of three”
I did not want this outcome but it is the one we have.
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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Michael, neither Labour or the Tories will produce an 'outcome' that is preferred by either brexiters or remainers. They are dead parties walking.
Corbyn for one has attracted tens of thousands of young voters by suggesting he'll scrap tuition fees (said this leading up to the last election) and just after the election said in an interview 'not he didn't actually say that'. He knows the majority of young voters are for remain but he isn't listening. Won't even bother talking about the Tories.
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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Hundreds of thousands I think you'll find.
Where did he say he wasn't scrapping tuition fees?
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Michael - you seem to be an argument with someone else - or about something else.
Brexit negotiations have got nowhere. The reality is that as it was sold in the campaign - Brexit is not deliverable. It is now clear that what is actually available is Norway or no deal. They are hugely different things.
Which did people vote for?
Meanwhile parliament cannot possibly agree to either. So what can happen?
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Matt, David and Spider-Man. All of you have come up with very persuasive arguments for why holding a referendum on an issue as complex as exiting or remaining in the EU was a terrible idea. I agree completely. It was a terrible idea and remains a terrible idea, no matter how the question is phrased or the nuisances of what is being asked. That logic remains the same. How can a second referendum improve on what what a flawed decision making process in the first place?
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But that comes back to the original premise. If you and I were clever enough to see through the guff, is that saying that those who put their X in the leave box weren’t? I don’t think the arguments for or against EU membership made one iota of difference to most people’s decision. I would have voted remain whatever was said because although I think the EU is a deeply flawed enterprise simply walking away from it was wrong. My mind was made up before the first leaflet dropped through my door or politician spouted some nonsense on the telly. Those who voted leave were probably no different to me. They want out and increasingly seem to want out whatever the consequences are. It’s an issue that has become so divisive and lacking in adult decision making that any outcome is down to feelings. It’s just too late to sort of the rubbish with another beauty contest vote. The people who are dealing with the negotiations are the wrong people and even if there was a rejection of a deal in another referendum it would be the same people, walking back into the room and buggering it all up again.
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Michael,
But the parties have not been clear regarding their polices/actions/response to the referendum and are still in a muddle because their members are split down the middle, as is the rest of the country.
I don't buy the argument that the country can't change it's mind regarding the 2016 referendum result because it might upset the 'far right'. The 'far right' have always been here and always will be. M15, GCHQ and the Counter Terrorism Command (CTC) or SO15 monitor their more extreme factions/activities. Their political entities are also monitored. If necessary a hacker pops up (eg. the loosely organised called group called Anonymous) and exposes the membership of more extreme groups such as the BNP.
A party such such as UKIP has every right to exist as does the organisation Momentum. They exist because of frustration with the 2 party system which is failing democracy in this country. In France that's why Macron exists. Maybe such a person will come forward in this country. No party is currently keeping this country together with their party infighting.
The People's Vote calls for a say on any deal. No one trusts the politicians to have the final say. What questions are put to the public would be decided by a commission set up to administer such a vote. The 'far right' members will able to vote too. That is democracy.
Having said all that, what does seem to be deciding the brexit issue is immigration. Seems both parties will scupper freedom of movement and move to a points based system. That's a red line for the EU so effectively that means, goodbye Europe, the UK is on its own; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45634901
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Permalink Reply by Tammy Palmer on
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Hi All,
Rather than starting a new thread I thought I would just add to this one.
For anyone in support of a peoples vote (and I fully appreciate some of you won't be) You may be aware that the 15 Liberal Democrat Cllrs in Haringey have asked that the council support a peoples vote. Given that Haringey as a borough had one of the highest remain votes in the country - across all wards, we feel that we should as council represent the wishes of our residents and support this.
Many other councils have voted this motion through.
The leader of the council has refused our request and we have now called an extraordinary council meeting on the evening of the 11th of October to ask for a vote.
Regardless of your political affiliation if you would like to come and show your support you would be very welcome.
As stated at the beginning of my post I recognise that there are some who do not support this and I fully respect your view as I hope mine will also be respected.
If you would like further information you can contact me at tammy.palmer@haringeylibdems.org
very best wishes
Cllr Tammy Palmer
Liberal Democrat Cllr for Crouch End and Parliamentary Candidate for Tottenham
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Permalink Reply by JHauptman on
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This is a priority in Haringey?
Within minutes of Jeremy Corbyn clarifying his desire for a General Election, the campaigning has begun.
An extraordinary meeting to press for a vote on whether the Council should offer meaningless support to a vote on something that hasn't yet been articulated. I think you could probably find some meatier issues to challenge in the Borough.
I note that you are the Lib Dem Parliamentary candidate for Tottenham.
Tammy, can I suggest that the constituents of Tottenham are quite used to ineffectual showboating from their Parliamentary representative. Perhaps offering a little more substance would provide them an attractive alternative.
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Hi J Hauptman
just to clarify... we called for this vote weeks ago... it does take some time to get agreement from the Mayor and for a date to be issued which only happened this week.
As for Mr Corbyn... I am afraid I have very little faith in anything he has to say, he had his chance to represent the views of millions who did not vote for this and failed. He has chosen to put his party and the chance of gaining power first. Even knowing that many of his MPs and Labour voters did not vote for Brexit their voices have been shouted down by Corbyn over and over again.
I think you sum up why we need a peoples a vote in saying this is something that has not been articulated... surely if there were a plan - a clear plan to exit the EU that would not affect any of us detrimentally then we would have seen it by now.
We are just months away from leaving and yet answers to critical issues such as the Irish border, the rights of EU citizens, crucial trade deals etc. have not been resolved.
It is quite clear that there is no plan, the politicians that should be negotiating for us are incapable of doing so. There are very clear warnings from the NHS, educational institutions, scientists, financial institutions and retailers expressing grave concerns over the future. Public opinion is shifting and although many still believe that leaving is the best thing, there are many people who now feel that this is not what they thought they were voting for. I think they have the right to if they so wish chose a different future for themselves now the facts are being made clearer.
My party is one which is built on the ethos of internationalism, and we will always fight for our right to part of the European Union - so not bandwagon jumping by the Lib Dems on this one!
Haringey overwhelmingly voted to remain, we believe that as the opposition party here we should be representing the will of the people in this borough and the choice that they made, we also have thousands of EU citizens who live and work here, their future is uncertain and Haringey should also make a clear commitment them by supporting this vote.
There are also many young people living in this borough who did not have a vote in 2016.. they should also have the right to a say in their future - after all it will be them most impacted by these decisions.
You won't get any disagreement from me on showboating... I live in White Hart Lane. There are absolutely pockets of Tottenham that are changing but there are also still huge inequalities in the East that have existed for years and still have not been tackled.
So yes as a resident I absolutely think we deserve better from a local MP. I do campaign a lot over in Tottenham and I am always happy to get involved - please do let me know if there are things that you would like any help with in that respect.
Obviously we have very different views on Brexit and a peoples vote - but hopefully you will respect my position on this as I do yours.
with very best wishes
Tammy
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