Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Lack of elected politicians at Hornsey Remembrance Service
Today, for the first time, I attended the service at Hornsey World War One Memorial (to lay wreaths for 2 relatives).
It was particularly important to me as I have very recently got one relative, my great uncle Reuben Leggett, added to the memorial.
It is also an important year in commemorating the war dead of World War One in this centenary year.
I assumed our local council would ensure local, elected representatives would attend such an important event.
I understand that the Hornsey and Wood Green MP, the council leader and the mayor always attend Wood Green memorial and that the deputy mayor, this year Hornsey councillor Jennifer Mann, attends Tottenham memorial.
Hornsey is allocated another councillor decided by the council leader. This year ex mayor Cllr Eddie Griffiths.
I assumed some local ward councillors, whose war dead are commemorated on the Hornsey War Memorial, would also attend of their own free will and out of respect.
After all some of their constituents, myself included, have relatives on the memorial.
As far as I know 6 current wards (Hornsey, Crouch End, Stroud Green, Harringay, Muswell Hill and Fortis Green) were part of the old Borough of Hornsey when the memorial was dedicated in 1921.
I hope I am wrong but I did not see any councillors from any of those wards at today’s service.
I wonder where they were today and what was more important to them than to attend this act of remembrance?
I would have thought that at least one councillor from each of those wards could have shown up.
Who I did see was ex Muswell Hill councillor and Hornsey resident Jim Jenks and his wife.
He had worked hard on my behalf when in office to get my great uncle’s name added to the memorial so I was especially pleased to be able to thank him today in person.
I hope the current councillors make a better effort in 2015 than they appear to have done this year.
If I am wrong I would like to know who was there from our elected representatives - Parliamentary candidates don’t count in my book. Remembrance services are not the place to play politics or canvass for votes.
Happy to be corrected by our local Labour or LibDem parties.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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From a picture tweeted by one councillor many of the councillors seemed to be at Wood Green memorial service. https://twitter.com/perayahmet/status/531549468014153728
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Permalink Reply by Lesley Ramm on
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Thanks Liz. Perhaps insufficient photo opportunities in Hornsey?
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Thanks to those who have responded to my post on Harringayonline and HornseyN8 Yahoo Group.
I will address responses in the order I received them.
Firstly I had an email from Dawn Barnes (a LibDem organiser). She did not state so but I assume, in the absence of any other response from the LibDems, that she speaks for the local party.
She explained that
Our only councillor in Hornsey, Stroud Green and Crouch End is also the group leader and traditionally attends the Wood Green service. Perhaps this is something we should reconsider for the future. I know that many of our cllrs were at various services around the borough according to where they were elected and am sorry that no-one was in attendance at Hornsey.
My emailed reply to her was
Thank you Dawn. It does seem that Wood Green gets many politicians etc attending leaving very few for elsewhere. I appreciate your explanation and await with interest responses from elsewhere. Will post once I have a fuller picture.
Then Liz posted on HoL
From a picture tweeted by one councillor many of the councillors seemed to be at Wood Green memorial service
My posted reply was
Thanks Liz. Perhaps insufficient photo opportunities in Hornsey?
I then had an email from Fran, copied to the 3 Hornsey Ward councillors, in response to the HorseyN8 Yahoo group posting.
Fran said
Hi Lesley
Thanks for your email, but I hope we never get to the stage where poppy wearing and attendance at services on Remembrance Sunday is mandatory. Or automatically castigating anyone who doesn't go as not showing respect. Our councillors are elected, but I don't expect them to be forced to take part in religious services, which I myself, as a atheist, regard as highly distasteful. Kind regards Fran
I was a bit taken aback as I had not intended to castigate anyone or imply everyone should wear a poppy. In fact I don’t think I mentioned poppies. My posting was specifically directed at elected politicians (of all parties).
I was asking why I did not see any elected politicians at Hornsey War Memorial, one of only 3 civic memorials in the borough of Haringey, from any of the wards it was built for (not Wood Green or Tottenham).
I can only speak for what happened at Hornsey and that was not a religious ceremony. The building is not a religious one - it was erected by a group of local people and funded by public subscription. It was built as an entrance to the old Hornsey Cottage Hospital and remains attached to the health centre and is now owned by the landlords of that building. No church was involved in the building and were not represented, as far as I am aware, at the ceremony of Remembrance on Sunday.
In any case I know that many local councillors of various or no religious persuasion do attend religious services and events in various churches, mosques, synagogues etc to undertake their elected duties. I doubt any are forced to participate.
For those present wards which would have been in the 1921 Borough of Hornsey there are 21 elected councillors of both parties (Labour and LibDem) as the borough then included Highgate and Harringay as well Hornsey, Crouch End, Fortis Green and Muswell Hill.
I then received an email from Hornsey ward Cllr Adam Jogee who, in the absence of any other, appears to be speaking on behalf of Labour for Hornsey and Wood Green.
He said
Dear Lesley,
Frankly, I am saddened that I have to send this email considering we discussed this very issue on Thursday when I saw you on Hornsey High Street.
You are absolutely right to note the importance of Haringey's local councillors coming together with residents to honour the sacrifices of those who gave their lives.
So everyone who has been copied into this chain is crystal clear - there were 4 Remembrance services across our Borough yesterday:
- Remembrance Sunday - 9 November
- 10.15am: Hornsey War Memorial, Hornsey Health Centre, Park Road, N8
Middlesex Regiment Association and Hornsey Cadets will hold a short wreath-laying service at the memorial, followed by an 11am service at St Mary with St George Church, corner of Cranley Gardens and Park Road - Cllr Blake from Muswell Hill, Cllr Wright from Woodside and Cllrs Doron and Arthur from Crouch End attended
- 10.45am: Official Civic Ceremony at Wood Green War Memorial, opposite Haringey Civic Centre, High Road, Wood Green, N2
- Cllrs Jogee and Weston (Hornsey), Cllrs Gallagher and Sahota (Stroud Green), Cllr Ryan (Harringay), Cllr McShane (Alexandra), Cllrs Meehan and Waters (Woodside), Cllr Christophides (Bounds Green), Cllr Ahmet (Noel Park).
As did the Lib Dem Leader Cllr Elliott (Crouch End)
- 10.45am: Tottenham War Memorial, Tottenham Town Hall, Town Hall Approach Road, N15
This will be preceded by a 9.30am service at Holy Trinity Church, Philip Lane, Tottenham - Cllr Mann in her role as Madam Deputy Mayor attended
- 3pm: St. Saviours Church Cross, Alexandra Park Road, Wood Green, N22
Cllrs Jogee, McShane, Patterson (Alexandra), Berryman (Fortis Green) and Madam Mayor.
I hope this clears everything up, often it is much easier to ask folks directly rather than raising concerns in public that are misplaced and inaccurate. There are also various photos, let me know if you would like to see them. many thanks Adam
Whilst I appreciate this response I am surprised at the defensive tone in replying to my questions which were not directed at any one or group of councillors other than all who represent the old Borough of Hornsey wards.
I am not sure which folks I was supposed to contact personally, there being 21 councillors who could have attended Hornsey War Memorial. As many councillors and indeed my own MP regularly use social media such as Twitter and Facebook; local websites such as Harringayonline and Bowes and Bounds Connected; Community groups such as the WERA and HornseyN8 Yahoo Groups I do not understand why my use of these seems to have caused such a reaction.
As I was asking questions and made it clear that I did not see i.e. recognise any councillors present I am not sure why my enquiry is deemed misplaced or inaccurate.
I would also point out to Cllr Jogee that there were many more than 4 Remembrance services in Haringey on Sunday as most, if not all, Anglican and Catholic as well as many other churches would have held their traditional religious service of Remembrance. But I was only addressing the civic ceremonies at the three borough war memorials.
It is true we discussed this very matter on Thursday where Cllr Jogee explained his reasons for attending Wood Green rather than Hornsey whilst another Hornsey councillor, who is deputy mayor traditionally attends Tottenham on behalf of the council.
I am pleased to see that 3 councillors from relevant wards (Muswell Hill and Crouch End) attended Hornsey Memorial from Labour.
However, I do ask why other councillors of both parties chose to attend Wood Green Memorial or no memorial at all instead of Hornsey.
I was interested to note that 4 councillors plus the Mayor attended a service at St Saviours Cross.
A little later I was copied in to an email reply by Cllr Jogee to Fran.
Here he says
Many thanks for this Fran.
We can't and won't be able, ever, to be at everything. The sooner our residents get that, I know most of them do, the better.
My family lost folks in the First world war, my own father is a veteran of the Zimbabwean civil war; Elin's partner fought in Iraq as recently as a few short years ago. And Jennifer grew up in the East End after war the war - most of the 1950s saw that part of London recover and deal with the effects of the war.
It was distasteful and I am still confused about why these points were raised in this way.
All best wishes Adam
P.s it is worth nothing that only 1 of the 9 Lib Dems attended a service yesterday, where as over 90% of the Labour group paid their respects. This isn't a time for politics which is why I spent 10 mins talking to the Tory candidate who laid a wreath in Wood Green.
Cllr Adam Jogee Cabinet Advisor for Libraries Labour Member for Hornsey 07812 677 723
I am sorry Cllr Jogee found my questions about this matter distasteful but I am at a loss to understand why.
Perhaps I am one of his constituents who “just don’t get that”.
Perhaps Cllr Jogee has taken this personally when I was asking about all 21 elected councillors in 7 Wards.
If what Cllr Jogee says about only 1 of 9 LibDem councillors attending any memorial service is true, and I am yet to hear from someone representing all 7 wards (Dawn Barnes only mentions Hornsey, Crouch End and Muswell Hill), that too is disappointing I feel.
And if it isn’t a time for party politics it must be a coincidence that so many non Wood Green councillors attended where the press were conveniently available to take photos.
Or perhaps I am just cynical.
And if politicians are unable to handle questions they should grow a thicker skin or consider getting another job perhaps.
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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No, Adam is stating in his own words a Haringey Labour unofficial policy of not dealing with constituents using social media. Email is fine apparently which I find odd as these can be forwarded or even, as we see in this case, posted online.
I understand why he's grumpy and unless there's some previous close relationship that you had with him I'm surprised he responded at all.
"And if politicians are unable to handle questions they should grow a thicker skin or consider getting another job perhaps." - well yes and no, I don't want politics to be just for psychopaths with thick skins and I don't think you do either.
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An interesting set of responses, Lesley.
While I don't disagree with the idea that no one should be forced to attend ceremonies or wear a poppy - I know you wear a white one and I preferred to spend time reflecting on the events of 1914-18 at St Paul Harringay's excellent exhibition and evening concert-, and it is clear that 4 councillors (all Labour) did attend Hornsey War Memorial, the response to you did come across as written in irritation at being questioned and publicly rather than an honest attempt to answer your question or set the record straight.
However, they are public figures only too happy to appear in publicly shared photos and tweets showing us where theyare and so they should be prepared to answer questions graciously in public about decisions made.
Cllr Jogee is relatively new to the business of being a councillor, so may be unaware that his tone comes across as defensive and irritated. Let us hope that this is merely inexperience at work.
War is, sadly a fact of life and there can hardly be a family untouched by the wars of the 20th and 21st century. For national politicians and those who might want one day to be MPs, the chance for remembrance and reflection on those wars are nothing to do with personal faith or identity but everything to do with understanding how the decisions of leaders and parties and political ideology may one day lead to hundreds, or as in the case of WW1, millions of lives being lost or changed forever. A few minutes once a year is not too much to ask, although one would hope that the ambitious elected amongst us would give more time to it than that.
It is not ridiculous to suggest that one day a young councillor will find themselves in the position of voting to go to war or not. Jeremy Corbyn was once a councillor in Harringay and was later to take a position on the devastating Iraq war. So while I would never suggest that councillors must attend such ceremonies, I would suggest it would do them no harm for the reasons I've outlined above.
With regard to Hornsey, I would have thought that given the enormous amount of work that you have done on the history of the men on the memorial, the fact that this is the centenary year and much work has been done on the memorial itself, that the Hornsey and Crouch End councillors would have *wanted* to be part of that (I doubt the Harringay councillors would have been aware of the past history of where the men of the ward would have been memorialised but I could be wrong - perhaps they popped into St Paul Harringay's excellent exhibition?). It wasn't too much for you to ask that 1 cllr from each of the wards represented on the memorial would be there. Perhaps by 2018, there will be more thought by individuals into where, if cllrs are willing to go to ceremonies, would be the most fitting for them to remember.
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Thanks Liz. I think i assumed that centrally the council or the local political parties decided who attended which memorial service. But perhaps that isn't the case and apart from ensuring that a senior councillor attends each of Wood Green, Tottenham and Hornsey it is left to individuals to decide what, if anything, they do on the day. Seems odd that it is left to a non elected organiser for LDs and an individual councillor for Labour to respond. Still fail to understand why individuals became so offended/upset/angry by my questions though.
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Permalink Reply by Old-Age-Emporium(OAE) on
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Lesley Ramm, you attended Hornsey WWI Memorial for the first time yesterday, to lay wreaths for Great-Uncle Reuben and one other. Wonderful?
Now you want to flush out every local councillor who failed to attend there and to suggest that any who chose to do their remembering elsewhere must have been out for the photo opp only.
I never thought I'd be agreeing with young Adam Jogee on anything, but in this case he's damn right to kick back at your silly name-blame-shame-game.
Maybe it's time to allow people - even councillors - to forget to remember or, better still, to remember to forget.
But since Great-Uncle Reuben helped you to clamber onto Hornsey's moral high ground for the first time, maybe we should just leave you there in your splendid indignation.
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And having spluttered your splendid libertarian indignation at Lesley, you might want to read my response and learn that Lesley has done an enormous amount of work on the Hornsey War Memorial and working with Jennifer Bell on conscientious objection in Hornsey. Lesley is a dedicated, grassroots local historian with a long and fascinating family history rooted in some of the poorest parts of our borough.
The story of Reuben is a sad and eye-opening one for those of us lucky enough to hear Lesley tell it - I feel sure you would recognise, in the story of the neglected workhouse boy who joined up probably for a good meal and a bit of dignity to lose his life at 17 at the Somme, a powerful story of class.
But I'm sure she can defend herself. Speaking for myself, I find your response as irritable as the young councillor's emails.
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I have to agree with Liz on this one. Lesley came across full of moral outrage that not sufficient numbers of people of high rank were to be seen joining her. I regard the entire hoo-ha around Remembrance as the most appalling disrespect to the dead. We should be taking to task all the MPs who support our disastrous interventions in war which leave our service personnel dead and often traumatised and have caused huge damage to many countries. We should regard the war dead as the victims of the crimes of our leaders who regard them as expendable, but these same leaders parade their crocodile tears and insult the dead and the living.
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I'm not sure that is what I said! - or indeed what Lesley said. She was wondering aloud why so many councillors who chose to attend ceremonies (and I don't think she expects people to attend who don't want to) were at Wood Green instead of the memorial where their ward dead are commemorated. It's a fair question. If it is left to individual choice, then Lesley's post can be seen as a request to consider what motivates them to go to which memorial. If allocated, then a discussion might be had around whether in 2018, there could be a different way of doing things - I fail to see what is wrong or outrageous about wanting that discussion.
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I didn’t say it was wonderful did I?
I didn’t want to flush anyone out. I just asked if any councillors, apart from Cllr Eddie Griffiths, had attended.
Not the most offensive question I would have thought.
The reason I mentioned photos was in response to Cllr Jogee’s mention of having various photographic proof.
I wasn’t looking to name, blame or shame.
I simply asked a question which some people, yourself included it seems, have become very upset by.
I wasn’t aware that having dead relatives gives someone the moral high ground on any matter. It is simply a matter of fact.
I wonder why you think my original post was indignant.
And all this vitriol from someone who hides behind a pseudonym.
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The name is Eddie Finnegan, Lesley. The "pseudonym" is not hiding anything, anymore than most "given names" on this forum reveal anything of note.
Glad to know, though, that HOL allows me to disagree with yourself, Liz and others on this issue of remembering and forgetting - even to the extent of apparently agreeing with that young fogey, Adam Jogee.
I may be mistaken on this, but I'd have thought that having everyone (who wants to Remember) meeting at a central Borough Remembrance Memorial to do their remembering has at least as much justification as amassing the ranks at the Cenotaph in Whitehall. Great photo opps there of course.
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