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Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

Guys hanging out at Turnpike Lane Station

Anyone recognise the group of young guys who always seem to be hanging outside the betting shop by the Tesco at Turnpike Lane Station? Are they the same group who were ASBOed off Duckett's Common? I've seen the same guys just hanging there about half a dozen times over the last few weeks. Definitely not there to have a flutter on the GGs...

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Permalink Reply by Cat on March 25, 2014 at 15:19

What? I have absolutely no idea how you inferred that from what I said. Of course I'm not blaming him, I am suggesting he contact the police about it. 'Prove' in this context (in case English isn't your first language) is the same as saying 'shown' or 'demonstrated' - nothing whatsoever to do with some weird notion about a burden of proof.

And no, we can't just assume a constant police awareness and presence. That's why people have to report things.

Permalink Reply by HarringayBirder on March 25, 2014 at 14:39

That is a very nasty ordeal to have to go through. Have you complained to the police? This is clear anti-social behaviour if not harassment and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why you should have to tolerate it or why the police would be justified in not investigating and then acting. It may be you would need to give evidence (although there is CCTV at that junction which would no doubt show what had gone on). If however you were required to give evidence then you would have the right to ask for screens to protect your identity. Please don't feel intimidated into not making a complaint.

Permalink Reply by Pete on March 25, 2014 at 16:10

Hi, yes, I've complained to the police many times, and of late have had some encouraging talks with Inspector Craig Middleton who seems serious about trying to do something about them. I understand that the main problem for the police is actually catching them in the act of selling drugs as apparently they stash them elsewhere. The situation did improve when many of the group were arrested last year and found guilty of a variety of offences and some did receive prison sentences and ASBO's banning them from the area but unfortunately as we can all see they're back again now.

You do often see them passing packets backwards and forwards between each other so yes, if you do see this please do call 101. I know a lot of women are also being harassed by them so please do report them if it happens to you.

Permalink Reply by HarringayBirder on March 25, 2014 at 17:55

Hi Pete

You said

"the main problem for the police is actually catching them in the act of selling drugs"...

I wasn't talking about that - I was talking about these people acting in a harassing and intimidating manner towards you and your son. The police do not need any proof of any connection at all with drugs to take action about that behaviour. It amounts clearly to anti-social behaviour and the police, provided they can identify any of the individuals responsible, can obtain orders banning those persons from so acting, hanging around in that location etc.

Furthermore:

"Where a Police Superintendent or above has reasonable grounds for believing that members of the public have been intimidated, harassed, alarmed or distressed in public places in a specific area (referred to as the relevant locality) and that anti-social behaviour is significant and a persistent problem in that area, he may make a written authority under s 30 ASBA with the consent of the Local Authority allowing Police Officers and Police Community Support Officers to disperse groups of more than two people."
 
The police have plenty of tools at their disposal; I wonder if they simply need to be persuaded to use them?
Permalink Reply by HarringayBirder on March 25, 2014 at 17:57

"The situation did improve when many of the group were arrested last year and found guilty of a variety of offences and some did receive prison sentences and ASBO's banning them from the area but unfortunately as we can all see they're back again now."

That cannot be correct: ASBOs last for a minimum of two years. It sounds as if the people prosecuted may simply have had bail conditions attached. The police or the CPS can supply you with the information you need; I would start with your Inspector. Note what he says.

Permalink Reply by Pete on March 25, 2014 at 18:23

Hi, thanks for replying, very interesting and helpful - you're quite right about the ASBO thing, I've just gone back and re-read the e mails I've received and I'm getting ASBO's mixed up with Dispersal Orders - this is from an e mail I received from Mike Bagnall a few weeks ago, Haringey Council's Anti Social Behaviour manager....

'The previous Dispersal Order expired on the 25th January 2014. It was not automatically extended due to previous communication received from residents that there were still ongoing problems at the Common despite the Dispersal Order being in place.  Since that time, the Council and the Police have been reviewing how any further extension can support other enforcement initiates as well as the resources available. It  was considered inappropriate to  renew the Dispersal Order without carrying out this  review , which is being chaired by Inspector Craig Middleton.
 
There have been previous arrests carried out by the Police and action taken by the Council against known perpetrators but as I mentioned in my last email to you, even with a Dispersal Order in place, the Police cannot be at the Common 24  hours a day; as a result, there may be a risk that dealing will take place when they are not in attendance. During these times it is important that the Public make reports to the Police should they witness such activity or be approached . I am unsure if you made a report to the Police at the time you were approached but it would be helpful if you do so in the future by calling 101.'

But what you're saying about harassment and intimidation is very interesting as I just presumed there was nothing that could be done about this, and for me this is the worst thing about this group being there - not just for mine and my son's sake but as I say when I see them targeting old people and women who are quite clearly terrified it really makes my blood boil, and the fact that something could be done about this makes me even more angry ! 

Permalink Reply by Cat on March 25, 2014 at 18:25

You should absolutely report them or their antisocial behaviour. Describe the experiences you have had, as well as what you have seen.

Permalink Reply by Finsbury Park Ranger on March 25, 2014 at 19:06

It's not like the police haven't seen it, those guys flank the bookies every night and enjoy looking like a pack. The issue is, I suspect, they are not really doing anything other than trying look and talk like gangsters when really they don't have a penny to rub together because they have been robbed by their addiction to the bookmakers.

This is probably more a gambling / disfranchised with the chance of ever getting a piece of the pie problem than a drugs problem.

The drugs just represent our red line. The real issue for me is why are so many young men wishing to waste all their days away in a growing number of bookmakers and what chance does a young uneducated man ever have of living a normal life and owning a house and having a good job in the only city they know as home.

Firstly let's end the benefits madness where people get paid for doing nothing and let's give everyone at least a part time job for the money instead. Then let's allow the state to regulate carefully and profit from liberal solutions to the problems of gambling and drugs and not allow private enterprise the sole right to control those massive economies.

Our police force itself is becoming pulled into the corruption, if things stay as they are, things will only get worse. Those young people on turnpike lane are choosing the only way they know how to scrape a sense of power back from a world that has cut them out of any chance of ever holding any real power or wealth legally.

Each horrible comment or grossly inappropriate gesture is a mirror up to us all. We created it as a community somehow.

Arrest them by all means but then what ?

The next riots might not be to try to claim the excesses of wealth stored in shops, they might next be to claim the excesses of wealth stored in houses ...

Permalink Reply by Cat on March 25, 2014 at 19:22

In the main, I agree with you. But using the resources I can immediately think of and the level of knowledge about the situation that I have, I was merely making a suggestion.

Permalink Reply by Finsbury Park Ranger on March 25, 2014 at 19:42
Fair enough, just thought I would keep in check the bigger picture to try to ensure we don't end up like an American city and encourage us to find our own solutions
Permalink Reply by Pete on March 26, 2014 at 11:25

You make some interesting points, but I'm not sure they're actually betting in the betting shops, they just seem to use it to dive in and out of when the police come past. Also...

'Those young people on turnpike lane are choosing the only way they know how to scrape a sense of power back'

I don't understand why you think these 10 or so men have no choice in life but to harass, terrify and mock people pushing children in buggies, old men in their 80s and women walking alone. If this were true why don't the other 99.9999999% of Haringey's male residents, many of them poor, feel the need to do this ?

'Each horrible comment or grossly inappropriate gesture is a mirror up to us all. We created it as a community somehow.'

Whilst I'm not disagreeing with you that there are problems in society that we need to address, we've only created this particular problem by allowing a tiny group of men to make life unpleasant for the rest of us.

Permalink Reply by pamish on March 26, 2014 at 12:06

Are they men or boys? The former threaten me, the latter are just silly. (I'm not a girl, if I were I would prob finds boys threatening too.)

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