Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Tottenham High Road is beyond saving
Haringey Council is at it again. They are putting forward yet another consultation plan on the future of Tottenham High Road. The council have 'identified' parts of the moribund centre for 'investment', while completely ignoring the fact that for so long, many of their policies have caused so much damage to the wider area.
On top of a poorly maintained environment, restrictive parking zones, and poor planning controls, many traders have now suffered a double whammy with the recent riots that has seen many shops and stores on the brink of collapse and others have closed completely. They also have to put up with the stupid "I Love Tottenham" campaign, a cynical publicity stunt trumpeted in the council's "People" freesheet.
The so-called help the council given to traders is too little too late, at a time of an economic downturn in which more public-sector staff already serving one of the most jobless and deprived areas of the country are facing the sack. Football club Spurs' recent decision to stay at White Hart Lane may please the massive number of fast-food outlets who are dependent on them for most of their income, but beyond that there never will be anything to entice people to shop and spend time locally as private investment remains nonexistent. The wider area will continue to stagnate socially, while the few locals with money to spend will continue travelling to neighbouring shopping and cultural areas instead.
The just published report by government advisor Mary Portas into the future of the High Street argues that some of main shopping areas are beyond saving. I have long said that Tottenham High Road at the present time is beyond saving, and I believe Haringey Council should divert the resources from what is currently spent in this 'black hole' to support the borough's other main shopping areas, including of course, the vibrant Green Lanes.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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There's some creative brainstorming on this thread. With interesting ideas and sharp questions about existing policies and assumptions. To me that seems the right approach to take. And, JJB, it was what you did in your first three paragraphs.
So why go and spoil it by feeling a need to attack "those in charge" for their supposed motivations?
Now please don't get me wrong. I don't object to justified criticism of what the Council, or Council officers do. And if you want, fair criticism of developers, landowners, traders, and the blokes who made a poor job of fixing your roof.
But why assume that everyone "in essence" agrees with you? And then go on to say that if they don't agree with you they must be: corrupt ("Are certain people getting kickbacks / patronage?"); or careerists; or incompetent. Or that they simply don't care?
Why does this discussion keep veering towards personal criticism and abuse? For example if Neville Collins comes up with some great proposals, I don't care whether he's a LibDem, a Trotskyist, or a member of Scrabble-Players-Anonymous. Neville does care about Tottenham and I welcome his - or anyone else's fresh thinking.
Especially at a brainstorming stage when ingenious and wild ideas can be even more fertile than conventional thinking.
Please bear in mind as well that "those in charge" aren't just "the Council". They include, for example, Lord Harris of Peckham who, it seems wants to rebuild his CarpetRight building as it was. Very welcome to most people I assume. But he's the one "in charge". Just as Spurs and all the other landowners along the High Road are "in charge" of the property they own.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor and in charge of nothing at all.)
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Permalink Reply by TTTH on
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I agree with Neville's point regarding Haringey's track record on Regeneration compared to neighbouring boroughs. I don't know much about their policies but as a Policy Officer myself, I know that the government is moving very slowly in getting the Neighbourhood Plans up and running. Articulate residents who want to get involved in Neighbourhood Plans for Tottenham High Road could potentially improve those policies and more importantly make Haringey (officers) work at improving them. A good place to start is with your Councillors, get them to look at areas of the Core Strategy which are lacking and ask them what they are doing with Neighbourhood Plans. Haringey should be tapping into Haringayonline as a ready made, articulate and experienced group of residents who could actually do something like change the face of Tottenham High Road.
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Permalink Reply by JJ B on
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Articulate residents who want to get involved in Neighbourhood Plans for Tottenham High Road could potentially improve those policies and more importantly make Haringey (officers) work at improving them.>>
Exactly the problem. They do. There are many, many civil organisations in East Haringey doing a lot of very good work helping a great many diverse groups. Our area is deprived economically but not in spirit nor in aspirations.
So, considering the profile of the place, more resources need to be invested to ensure that the results adequately reflect solutions that will really result in the improvement of the quality of life of the residents and not just in "regeneration" that will make the place attractive for better-off in-comers. Real progress for people not just on paper.
Read what Seema has written elswhere on this thread about the consultations. I moved to this Borough only a few years ago and I am not saying that a tremendous amount of work hasn't been done. But I have been active in my neighbourhood and taken part in local groups from day 1. Right away it was evident that something was not right in the way the resources are allocated within the Borough and with the vision (or rather lack of) that the people in charge have for the place.
Policies ALREADY exist governing very important aspects of urban management, inter allia. Haringey just doesn't enforce them. So it isn't just about getting the policies in place. That is the problem. It is very much about the process and the people who are in charge of the processes. Do not forget that Heather Rabbatts had to move into Lambeth to 'clean it up' and that Hackney was declared a 'failed borough' and centrally managed before real improvements started to kick in in those places.
I agree with Stanton about the different levels of "being in charge". I do take care of my house and property and I also sweep the pavement in front of my house, but should I then go and sweep the whole neighbourhood too? Is our democracy not organised in such a way that we pay taxes for common provision of services and that we elect people to lead the running of services for the general good?
There are people in our neighbourhoods that do go and look after public property, planting flowers in the neglected planters, etc. But people like Stanton so flippantly ignore the real frustrations we residents have when we demand accountability for failure. He has admitted that he is in charge of nothing>>.
The question remains. Who is there to turn too then? Should residents then take things into their own hands and riot until we get results?
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With all due respect Councillor Stanton.If you are in charge of nothing at all, how dare you stay as councillor. Please resign then. Elections are coming up. You seem to be here as if you were just a social commenter-bystander but you ARE a councillor, elected to represent people and to kick ass if necessary and make sure things are done and if not to explain to the constituents why they aren't. I understand fully that there are all sorts of constraints. But the way you commnet you just seem (on HOL in any case) to make comments as if you have no responsibility in the running of the place.
You seem to fail to understand the extreme frustration that people are expressing. What accounts for Haringey's VERY POOR track record?
Who can tell me why the sidewalks in my road don't look anything like the ones in the west of the Borough? What explains this?
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I'm genuinely puzzled, JJB, that you don't understand the difference between being "in charge" of something and getting elected to the Council.
Perhaps, in very general terms, some people see all councillors as responsible for the policies and decisions taken by the Council as a body. But in commonsense terms, it's the majority party. And - both as a councillor and a member of the group of Labour councillors - I accept my share of responsibility for these.
It's similar to MPs supporting the coalition parties being responsible for Parliament's policies and legislation. But just as, in Parliament, the cabinet and specific ministers can be said to be "in charge"; the corresponding roles in councils like Haringey are the leader and cabinet.
Please have a look at the Wikipedia page about how "cabinet" syle councils run.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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Putting all politics aside Alan is there not more truth in JJ-B's comments than you're prepared to admit?
Given that about 90% of what councils do is mandated by statute, does this not give councillors little freedom of action and instead leaves them tinkering on the margins?
Many of us already understand the meaning of responsibility, even when that takes collective form.
It would be nice to have clear statements, in non-pompous language, about responsibility and accountability of individual [local government] "cabinet" members.
In my direct experience, it is difficult enough for a member of the public to get accountability for flagrant Councillor misconduct involving the loss of millions of our money, let alone less serious matters.
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"Putting all politics aside ..."
Clive, I was trying to give a non-party reply to JJB. But if councillors took his advice to resign if they are not put "in charge" of something, that's goodbye to the entire LibDem group and most Labour councillors.
Which would lead to a number of expensive and pointless - if JJB is right - by elections. When new people would be elected who haven't yet grasped the truth of his wise words.
Do I agree with you that: "about 90% of what councils do is mandated by statute" which gives "councillors little freedom of action and instead leaves them tinkering on the margins" ?
Yes. And I've already gone a lot further and pointed out the existence of far more powerful "players" on the local "gameboard" than councils and councillors. (Even the grandest of "cabinet" grandees.) For example, there are powerful commercial and publicly funded bodies - including landowners and local employers. In fact, failing to give proper weight to these powerful interests often leaves us unable to take effective action when we disagree with their plans and activities.
Do I agree on the need for: "clear statements ... about responsibility and accountability of individual [local government] 'cabinet' members." Yep. There's a summary on Haringey website here and I'm sure more detailed descriptions exist if you ask. Though there's always a difference between formal and informal power.
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Permalink Reply by Neville Collins on
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@Christopher
I've always said that Tottenham has received substantial sums of money to improve the area in the past, yet it hasn't delivered any real change. The council had put forward its own priorities ahead of those of the community.
My proposals to improve the High Road:
- Enforce planning and licensing policies. Take action on empty buildings.
- Improve street cleansing and refuse collection.Provide more litter bins.
- Repair broken highways, pavements, improve street lighting, and repair and maintain public toilets.
- Review parking controls. Alter control timings at Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale. Abolish charges at local car parks.
- Bring in groups like the Ward's Corner Coalition to organise town centre management.
- Forget about attracting people to the area. Put more energy into real priorities like housing the homeless, improving education and encourage community controlled youth services.
It doesn't need a lot... but it needs the council to change its entire operation for this to happen.
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Permalink Reply by Geoff Dent on
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Sadly this all sounds horribly familiar. I was brought up in Tottenham in the 50s and 60s and had Saturday jobs in Tottenham High Road so got to know it well although I was a "West Green" boy. I cannot recall ever shopping there as it always lacked any attraction - Green Lanes, Harringay or Wood Green High Road won out easily. Although I now live in Sussex I do come back to London to work occasionally and was in the High Road last year (pre-riots). It was like I had not been away. I do not know what the answer is and I'm not sure I could even adequately identify the problem. All rather tragic really...
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Haringey has advertised in The Guardian for a new town centre manager for Tottenham. It is for a two-year fixed term contract at between £40,716 and £43,388 per annum. I don't know how such a post is going to help tackle the High Road's deep rooted problems when they continually fail to deliver the basics.
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All depends on what the Town Centre manager is supposed to do. There is already someone active in a similar role in Tottenahm. The ad may be to get them into that official position.
But then if the LBH doesn't have a clear vision and isn't prepared to do what is necesaary to support the Manager it is all a waste of time.
Look at the major developments along the High rd and there is a clear disagreement as to what is going to make the place "regenerate". The council's development model is clearly 'regeneration that will displace the problems and replace the people. It isn't really into seeking development for present stakeholders. The first is easier to do than the second which needs more dedication and ressources. Some of the councillors themselves pay lip service and quite frankly seem resigned to follow the orders of the Labour directorate who seems to have a command of their minds. Those who oppose teh directorate get sidelined, banished and punished - for the record I am a leftie!
The committment just isn't there and if you went the do of the post riots panel at Tottenahm Spurs some time ago, you will have witnessed the anger coming from certain sections of the resident population. And a lot of the people there were technocrat "spongers" and people who do not reside in Tottenham.
That alone says much. The anger is rebuilding and civil disturbance will happen again if these problems are not dealt in a way that really deals with the underdevelopment* that we see in this part of London. It is only a matter of time.
*underdevelopment - that is what it is. Jus building new buildings does not solve the people's prolems. The underlying problems are far more complex and these have to be dealt with as a whole. Many of the new developements will just generate new problems.
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In general terms, I agree with your comment, JJB. (Which is unusual, I know.) It probably means that we'll disagree about the detail and. even more, what is to be done.
It's true that "just building new buildings does not solve people's problems". But getting a functioning Bruce Grove Post Office was essential. And the new one is far far better than the dire, depressing P.O. that was fire-gutted in the riot. And that's partly down to some local residents who put pressure on the Post Office management, got them to a local meeting to hear the very strong residents' views. (Nothing to do with the Town Centre Manager.)
Okay, the replacement Aldi supermarket won't be a beautiful award-winning new building. But the fact that it'll be quickly rebuilt can bring back a successful store.
Credit as well to the Haringey staff who supported both traders and residents following the Tottenham riot. Delays in paying out some insurance claims have been a disgrace. (In spite of the work of dedicated Council staff and in David Lammy's office.)
I don't understand your comment about "technocratic spongers and people who do not reside in Tottenham". Personally I welcome useful and creative knowledge and ideas views from anyone - whether they live in Tottenham or not. Though it would be nice if they came prepared to listen and learn; share their thinking; and have a real dialogue with us locals.
But if you're objecting to snake-oil salesmen with instant solutions; colonists and predators; then I'm with you.
Though even well-intentioned outsiders often seem to get a very skewed view of Tottenham. Maybe they don't want any new facts which may confuse the already clear picture they've seen on TV. Or perhaps it's because they speak to a very narrow range of local "leaders" and spokespeople" many of whom have sectional and commercial interests. But whatever the reasons, outsiders often repeat tired, failed old ideas from these interested parties and - even worse - from what passes in Haringey as a Regeneration Strategy.
So, yes, "the underlying problems are far more complex". And apart from the efforts of David Lammy and the ideas in his book, nobody in Haringey has made much of a start in understanding, let alone tackling these underlying problems.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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