To Chav or not to Chav

The following comments have been moved here from the post about the recent St Ann's Rd stabbing:

Reply by Sarah Dora on Wednesday

Blimey! What's happened to The Salisbury?! I remember when Dave didn't allow any riff-raff in there and on my last visit, it was full of chavs and the music was shit. :( 

Reply by Birdy_Too on Wednesday

@Sarah. What an ignorant comment!

Reply by Haringey Resident on Wednesday

What a disgusting comment. You might want to go to the library and borrow a copy of 'Chavs: The demonization of the working class' and then think about dropping that nasty word and those nasty sentiments.

Reply by Alison P on Thursday

Sara, that is a horrible comment, how can you be so flippant - somebody DIED.

Reply by Clive Carter on Thursday

I remember when Dave didn't allow any riff-raff in there and on my last visit, it was full of chavs and the music was shit.

Sarah you probably didn't mean to sound callous by juxtaposing crude remarks about the Salisbury with posts about a man's death. However, it does not sound decent.

Before you launch into the web again with words that may remain persistent for years or decades, can I ask you to bear in mind general advice mentioned to me in passing when I was about 15:

never put into writing anything you would not be happy to have read out in open court.

Reply by james walsh on Thursday

With respect to all you, chav means innocent baby in romany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

Reply by John D on Thursday

Oh come on ! If she didn't like the people in the pub she's perfectly  entitled to call them whatever she thinks appropriate. Nobody in here has ever objected to the adjective " middle class " :  often used here to describe people, attitudes or behaviour.

Reply by Alan Stanton on Thursday

So, John, anyone can say anything they like "think appropriate"?

I'm certain that Sarah has no intention whatever to link a pub business and her impression of its customers on her last visit, with a man's death by stabbing close by.

But that's the danger. We are not just chatting with our acquaintances. Stuff published on the internet gets googled. It's recycled; and it persists. Sometimes a juxtaposition of place and event can define a place in some people's minds. (The reason why some property developers now want to rebrand parts of Tottenham with new names.)

Reply by John D on Thursday

Subject to laws on slander, racism and religion, etc why not ? I've been labelled a " Tory " in here and I didn't scream ignorant, nasty, disgusting comment. Sarah could have said the Salisbury was full of brash, loutish, foul-mouthed people wearing bling and fake designer clothes - if that was her impression - but " chav " conveys all that much more succinctly.

As to defining a place, don't you think it's inappropriate to label Crouch End or Muswell Hill as predominantly middle class ? Or would an estate agent  feature that as a selling point ?

I notice too, that amidst all the outrage, Sarah is the only person so far to have expressed sympathy for the victim's family and friends.

Reply by Alan Stanton on Thursday

Why not? Well, John, perhaps you might consider the title of this thread.

Then try to put yourself in the position of the owner or a member of staff in a hypothetical small business - let's call it "John's Place".

And then imagine that you've put years and months and hours, and thought and sweat and money into building it up and running it. And further that it's in a sector where such businesses are having a hard time surviving.

And now imagine there's a tragic incident nearby which - as far as we know - has nothing to do with your business. But is linked to it in people's minds by a posting headed "John's Place Incident". Which is pretty likely to find its way into Google and may pop-up when people type "John's Place".

If you're interested I will lend you a very short book - 100 pages - by Cass Sunstein. it's called: On Rumours. Here's a not entirely positive review.

Reply by John D on Thursday

But Sarah's comment was posted before it became clear that the stabbing was not connected to the Salisbury. Unfortunate but not her fault. Why don't you attack the title " Salisbury pub incident " since it now transpires that the incident did not happen inside the Salisbury ?

But you miss my point Alan. It seemed to me that Harringay Resident was objecting to the use of the word " chav " in that he/she believes that it demonises the working class. Not all bungalows are occupied by Indians.

Reply by Sharon on Thursday

The word Chav, does indeed demonize white working class people, the mystery to me is that Sarah saw any of them in the Sal.....pub on the corner of st annes road and green lanes. A wonderful establishment, I agree and not connected at all to this tragic incident. Sad for the whole community, condolences to all family and friends.

Reply by Alan Stanton on Thursday

John, I'm not "attacking" either Sarah or Vikram. I'm simply pointing out a need to be more thoughtful and take more care when using social media which are: public; rapidly and easily disseminated; persistent; and very easily retrievable. And crucially where some of what's published is amplified and "churnalised".

I've been doing some rethinking about what I write on my own photoblog pages. I used to get under 100 hits a day. It slowly rose to 500 but is now averaging over 1000.

To my mind that carries more responsibility for checking what I write. And going back and correcting or deleting factual errors.

Reply by Jemma on Thursday

Wow! People clearly have too much time on their hands!

Reply by concernedres yesterday

Totally agree

Reply by james walsh on Thursday

We can all make objections to the way others speak. Chav is very offensive if you are Romany just like coon or kike or spudhead. Therefore i am offended when these words are used is that ok ?

Reply by John D on Thursday

@ Sharon. You're surprised that she saw white working-class people in that pub ?

@ Alan I agree with the need for thought. If Sharon had thought she might have phrased her post differently 

@ James. I imagine that chav would be offensive if you happen to be a chav. I'm OK with that.

Now, in view of the tragic nature of this incident, I'm not going to argue semantics any more in this tread

Reply by james walsh on Thursday

John* You're not getting it sadly. Would you say to someone 'Don't be a Yid' and then in the same breath 'It's ok they're Jewish' ?

Reply by Sharon on Thursday

I'm the one in the corner with the cubist face. Oh...hang on....

Reply by HoL Site Admin on Thursday

It's the same as Vikram has posted in his reply to the original post. No further information has been added.

Reply by Stan on Thursday

One of the more moronic discussions in recent times. A bloke died you muppets.

But you are not alone in your shambolic arguments about the use of derogatory terms.

No less than the THST has today made this thread seem erudite.

“Our view has always been that should Spurs fans use of the Yid identity come to an end, this should be as a result of the feeling among the Spurs community that it was time to move on. This issue has always been of the utmost importance to us and, whilst we fully recognise that Spurs fans use of the Y-word and associated identity may have caused some upset to members of the Jewish community, we sincerely believe no Spurs fan uses the term in a malicious way.

”The statement from THST, who are consulted by the club on a range of issues, went on: “THST believes that rather than focus on Tottenham Hotspur fans using the term, more work needs to be done to educate supporters of other clubs as to why it is unacceptable for them to continue to sing songs and chants that do not focus solely on Spurs fans but slur the Jewish community as a whole."

Reply by james walsh on Thursday

"Stan* Not exactly handing out the compliments yourself. ''Moron, disused term for a person with a mental age between 8 and 12, and a common insult for a person considered stupid (or just a generic insult)''."

Reply by Stan on Thursday

And this just in, James...

Kerry Katona is to have her fifth chav.

(I trust that meets with the broadest range of definitions for the term).

Reply by Liz yesterday

I'm not sure what we'd do without Stan to step in and let us all know just how beneath his contempt we are this week. 

Do you do it in real life Stan? HOL drinks at The Salisbury on the 25th Sept. Do feel free to join us. 

Reply by easysteve on Thursday

(Main part of comment remains in original thread)

Ps I used to hang around traveler camp sites when I was a teenager and the word chav (chavi) was used all the time referring to 'child', 'boy' and was never an insult. its only recently it has become a generic term and is not a particular insult. Unless you're middle class of course.

Reply by Sharon on Thursday

Of course 'Chav' is an insult, designed to demonize white working class people and we know that Sarah used it to mean this, it wasnt a cultural referance to Romany travellers. Someone  mentioned Owen Jones book earlier, Chavs : the demonization of the poor. I recommend it.

Reply by Old-Age-Emporium(OAE) on Thursday

On behalf of St Ann or even St Anne, Jesus's putative Nan/granny, I object strongly to having her road associated with this crime. I have been contacted also by the law-abiding Riff and Raff families of the Harringay area, protesting that they keep themselves to themselves and certainly never patronise the low-life shebeens of Green Lanes.