Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
A parking conundrum in Crouch End
My neighbour got a ticket the other day, for parking across two pays on our road, Nelson Road, N8. The only weird thing is: We do not have parking bays. We just have lines. There is ONE random line, and that’s it. That was under his car, and he was told he was across two bays.
He is disputing it, of course, but I am now wondering: How can we get this weird line removed, and why is it there in the first place? We’re now getting a bit paranoid about jobsworth parking wardens giving out parking tickets when there’s no good reason for it. They’re just a pain in the a** to dispute, and no one wants the hassle, even though it’s pretty clear there’s no bay there, see photos.
Here's the one little line in question:
See - no bays!!!
Any suggestions?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Anette on
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But John, it's still not a bay. Or anything else for that matter. It's just a meaningless LINE. Still!
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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Anette it's evidence of guilt, although where the new mark gets Parking Services, I don't know. Parking Services didn't get to a £6,000,000 surplus by readily admitting mistake and they are likely to have targets to meet, even if a PCN Target by another name would smell the same.
Can you date stamp your photos, showing no bays or other perpendicular marks?
Going by the fresh line, you might expect further notices springing up in the next few days. But that would be to compound their error.
I'm wondering if the original painter began to draw a bay for a disabled resident, outside No. X, only to realise after marking the first line, that the operative had the wrong road and the disabled bay should have gone into a nearby, parallel road. Might be worth checking in adjacent roads, alongside house numbers similar to X ...
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Anette, if you haven't done so, please do send your email update to Ann Cunningham. (For people who haven't been following the whole thread, She is the senior manager responsible for the Parking Service. Over the years I've had my disagreements with Ann - sometimes quite strongly so. But I've also come to respect her fairness and professionalism.
Generally councillors are advised not to take up individual PCNs (parking tickets). And there are several good reasons for this. One is that some people treat local politics as patronage and influence. They may ask their councillor to get a PCN cancelled - rather than use the representation/appeal process.
My view is that councillors can and should get involved if the system is not working properly. And to press for the common sense approach called for by Rachel Allison.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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Alan, I sent the update to her last night, and my neighbours have also followed up today with emails as well as their PCN numbers. She was very quick to react to my last email, so hopefully we'll have a reply fairly quickly. The story of this silly line is quite amazing.
And Clive, yes, I have a date stamp on my photos, so no worries there.
Let's home common sense prevails. I'll keep you posted.
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I just had an email from the parking people. Not showing willing to admit they're wrong, or explain why this line was re-painted. Also, there are two signs, they both say the same. CPZ times. That's all. Not one mentions permits. At all. This will be turning this line in to a parking-trap AND IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. This whole letter is not acceptable. Rachel, is there anyhting you can do to help us?
Email below:
Dear Ms ,
Thank you for your email.
I would like to take this opportunity to explain the reason for the split in the parking bay at this location. There are 2 different types of bays at this location the one is designated as residents permits only and the other is permit parking only. The reasoning behind this is to accommodate all types of permit within the permit bays, for example business permit and residents permit holders. This allows the council to manage the areas where business permit holders may park so that areas for exclusive resident parking are provided.
In relation to those neighbours who have been issued penalty notices please forward my details and ask them to email their vehicle registration mark and/or PCN reference number beginning HY and I will arrange for the manager who deals with parking appeals to look at the cases urgently.
I trust this clarifies the parking arrangements at this location.
Kind Regards
Chris Roberts-Wray Parking Projects Manager Traffic Management - Single Frontline London Borough of Haringey River Park House Wood Green N22 8HQ
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Anette if you're right about the signs, then this letter reflects obduracy.
When Mr Roberts says there are two different types of bays at this location, one would expect this distinction to be clear beforehand, otherwise it could look like entrapment.
I expect that signs will be going up in the near future to "backfill" as sometimes happens when the council acts as though there is evidence and later needs to create the necessary conditions-ante.
What might lie behind such conduct?
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Clive, I am sure, and as soon as I get home I will take new photos to prove it. Time and date stamped. Unless they've beaten me to it, that would be interesting.... I actually double-chedked this morning, there are 2 signs, identical, one of which I have posted a photo of here. This is getting more and more STUPID. Just erase the line!
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E N T R A P M E N T
Anette, I have now mounted, by bicycle, a personal site inspection and spoken with a near-neighbour to the council's lines-scandal.
It gives me no pleasure to contradict you: as at 16:30 this afternoon, the signs do not say the same; the council officer is correct.
One sign says Permits Only and the other says Residents Permits Only - in each case, ahead of other wording on the sign, each of which is the same size and the same overall appearance.
I think you can be forgiven for the confusion. I believe they may have been designed deliberately so as the meaning could be easily confused by the casual user.
The neighbour, an elderly non-car owning gentleman, described it as "daylight robbery". I didn't have time to discuss PCN targets with him.
Councillors contributing to this site have before now called for clear, unambiguous signage. There is only one reason not to do this: the possibility of tricking the public into thinking they've parked "legally" when they have not. And this raises money towards internal PCN targets forecasts.
The council probably feels smug and justified with their explanation, but the omission of half the line should give them no reason for satisfaction. I would rate the situation - even now with the second half of the division complete - as ranking as the most subtle separate bay in the Borough. I'd call that entrapment.
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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The best 'entrapment' operation I know of is on Hornsey High St. If whilst driving through you stop to buy something from one of the local shops, you may find yourself with a ticket in the post a couple of weeks later. Reason being, a parking bay or two change from 'pay at the machine' to 'loading bay' at different times of the day. Yes the same parking bays. Trouble is you have to pull up to read the signs to remind yourself as the times are a tad confusing/impossible to remember.
Of course the council have realised the opportunity to cash in on this confusion they themselves designed and paid at great expense for a camera to be installed which hones in on this area of the street. As soon as you pull over you are ticketed if you find yourself within the 'loading bay' time.
I no longer bother to shop there having been stung once. If this set-up has caused others to come to this conclusion then it ain't good for local businesses.
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Clive, you are right. Just checked again. The word "residents" is missing from one sign. But if you have a residents permit, you can park wherever you like. But if you happen to go over the one tiny STUPID line, they will try to give you a PCN. I still fail to see how this is right and proper, who these other "permits" are for, and and how they justify this. I'm not accepting this fob-off I got from the council today. It IS entrapment, and it's borderline illegal, and most certainly immoral.
So either put proper signs up, mark up the bays PROPERLY or remove the line entirely. Do not leave us with this parking trap, it is not fair, just or proper.
Allan, Rachel, can you please help us out?
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The position of the council appears to be that commercial users may only park in the Permits Holders Only zone and not in the Residents Permits Holders Only zone.
Is it not the case that residents with permits may park in either zone?
In other words, that residents can park in every millimetre of either zone?
Does the council argue that the width of the line marking does not form part of either zone? I'm not trying to be willfully stupid, only trying to put myself briefly into the mind of a Council Officer.
It IS entrapment, and it's borderline illegal, and most certainly immoral.
I believe you are right about the morality here.
Recently, Haringey announced a measure [here] targetted at Pay Day Loan Companies, which campaign I don't criticise. They blocked access to the web sites of these companies. The intention is to help protect vulnerable residents from financial exploitation by greedy operators, whose offer of help often turns sour.
This was a moral action by the council and showed some leadership (really, the government ought to do something).
With its other hand, the council operate a system that ostensibly is designed to help everyone by controlling parking in a responsible manner ... yet sometimes achieves a similar result as pay day loan operators: obtaining financial advantage by deception, that verges on legalised extortion.
The unofficial entrapment policy makes less money per sting than pay day loan companies, but the council's efforts are more widely targetted.
Matt's case in Hornsey is an example of the council's entrapment regime operated throughout the Borough.
Haringey Council is hardly alone in this unethical conduct and the motivation is the same as the Pay Day Loan companies: cash. Last year, the CPZ (council profit zone) total was £6,000,000 in clear profit surplus.
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