Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Looking for advice on parking ticket appeal.
Hi, hoping someone can give me some advice, and an impartial view on whether I should continue to appeal a parking ticket.
I parked in the Finsbury Park CPZ on a Sunday afternoon at 4.10pm. The restictions state that there is no parking between 8.00am and 4.30pm on 'Event and Match Days'. I know this because before setting out I had checked the Haringey Council website. The page which gave these times also said to check another page to see whether events were taking place at Finsbury Park. I did this and it clearly stated that no events were taking place. (I have kept copies of both of these webpages). I also checked the Arsenal site and no game was on.
When I arrived I also checked a Pay and Display machine, which had a different set of times, stating that you should not park before 4pm. (I also have a photo of this!!).
I contested the ticket, including the evidence given above, and today received a rejection of my appeal. The rejection states that an event was taking place in Finsbury Park (Newroz?) and that the ticket was correctly issued. (There was a sign in the road giving a premium rate phoneline to check whether events were on, but as I had previously checked online this seemed pointless).
The rejection letter makes no mention of the misleading (wrong?) information from their website, which I provided them with. It also states that I believed the parking restriction ended at 4pm, when I clearly stated that this was the information on their pay and display machine!
Obviously I have a somewhat biased view on the matter and would appreciate an impartial view based on the evidence given. Any advice from anyone else who has contested a PCN would be very much appreciated.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Salsa on
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I would ask my local councillor if I were you. It sounds like you got a PCN rather unfairly given the circumstances.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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Is this Haringey's most confusing parking sign? was a popular thread ten months ago, about parking signs at Finsbury Park 'B' CPZ. Could it not be seen as entrapment?
Sounds like targets are alive and well at Parking "Services" and applied to you, in order to extract ready cash, in a way that is amoral, but licit.
This is the part of the slow undermining of respect for Local Government about which the council seems oblivious.
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Permalink Reply by doug on
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Many thanks Clive, Sally and Stan.
Yes Clive, the sign was very much like the one in the thread you mention, except it wasn't kind enough to let me know whether there was an 'event or matchday' on, those rather amusing flaps have gone!As mentioned previously,the webpage that Haringey Council advise to check before parking confirmed no events at Finsbury Park, except 'tree planting' the following Tuesday!
Yes entrapment certainly comes to mind, but then as I said I have a biased view. The fact that traffic wardens were even operating on this day when 90% of the parked cars were covered in snow leaving any form of permits invisible only adds to this view.
I have nothing against parking enforcement, but to me it appears again that Haringey Council believe they can make the rules up as they go along. Their website states no event taking place. I provide them with evidence of this. They totally ignore this evidence and just state that an event was taking place. They also ignored the fact that the parking restrictions on the Pay and Display machine indicate that it is OK to park after 4.00pm on Sundays (I parked at 4.10pm).
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IT's just as well their CEO's don't have targets to meet. At least, that's what is promised by Haringey here, in the council's formal response to my FoI request on this subject. I mean, if they had targets to meet, enforcement could become oppressive ...
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Hello Doug,
You don't say whether they have rejected your "formal representations" or just an initial "Informal Challenge". I suspect they routinely dismiss the initial challenges just to test people's resolve against the risk of the fine doubling.
Making people phone up (or even look on a website) to determine whether or not they can park must be a fairly new idea and its not something I came across when researching the reg's for my own (successful) appeal last year. I wonder if this practice is even lawful. Anyway it's certainly not fair for you to get a ticket if you were misled by the Council's website.
Here are a couple of extracts from (DfT) Operational Guidance to Local Authorities which may apply:
11.4 - Under general principles of public law, authorities have a duty to act fairly and proportionately and are encouraged to exercise discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the public interest.
2.12 - The restrictions need to be made clear to motorists through appropriate and legal traffic signs and road markings. (No mention of premium-rate phone lines or websites here.)
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Many thanks for this, very useful. At the moment it's just the informal rejection.
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Doug, on the matter of Parking Ticket Targets, you might like to check out the front page of today's Ham & High (at least in the Broadway Edition) and the piece by editor Geoff Martin on the topic of Parking Enforcement: it's his whole editorial.
You might further like to contrast what is revealed in the H&H, with the Freedom Of Information answer the council gave to me last year, where there is unqualified denial of the existence of Targets (re-named "Expectations").
Here, on WhatDoTheyKnow ...
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Very interesting Clive - this almost appears to imply that Haringey Council have been acting unlawfully, they wouldn't do that - surely not?? Hang on a minute, I almost forgot http://www.harringayonline.com/forum/topics/haringey-council-tried-...
The article might also explain the recent case raised by a near neighbour that Cllr Nilgun looked into where cars were regularly being towed away from a newly constructed speed ramp in Alexandra Palace Road. The cars were being towed away because the ramp was 'supposed' to have double yellow lines on, but the council hadn't actually painted them on!!
What really aggravates me is not the financial issue, but the complete disregard that the parking department has for its residents. As Alexander states above, they want to test resolve, knowing full well that a very large percentage of the borough's residents often don't have the means or know how to contest the council's decisions.
I have attached the photos of the council webpage stating that no event was taking place on the day I received a PCN (Sunday 24th March - 4.10pm). The information on the pay and display ticket machine, which contradicts the operational hours given on the Haringey website, is also attached. Haringey council chose to completely ignore this evidence when rejecting my informal appeal. Their arguement was simply that an event was taking place in Finsbury Park.
Many thanks for the advice given on here, maybe it's would be beneficial to have a less impartial view now from one of the labour councillors that frequent this site?
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I agree with stan.....the appeal process is straight forward, just as he described. I think you will win your appeal based on their Mis-administration of them not updating their website appropriately.
one method of investigation is enough, you looked on the website...you should not be forced to make a phone call as well it should be either or.
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Thanks for that - I too believe I will win an appeal. I just find it very frustrating that the Council default mode for informal appeals appears to be 'don't read/take into account any evidence, just reject and hope they don't take it any further'.
The parking depatment, I assume, is a fairly small one within the Council. Unfortunately it leaves many residents with a very negative opinion of the Council. I have received some excellent service from other departments, namely 'roads and highways' and '24hr noise control'. I have taken time to write and thank them for the service they have provided. The same can't be said for the parking department who have consistently managed to provide me with an appalling level of customer service over the 20 years I have lived in the borough. Maybe it's time for Ms Cunningham's promotion to the Borough of Kingston.
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Here's the online version of the H&H's front page story:
Haringey CCTV cars told to hit ‘illegal’ daily targets for issuing ...
leaves many residents with a very negative opinion of the Council
Yes. The council just think of it as easy money, but in the long run its undermining public respect for the local authority. Sadly, much enforcement now comes under the headings of Revenue and Entrapment.
Parking might be a small department within the council, but in the last few years it has become, in accounting terminology, an important profit centre. In theory (due to "ring fencing"), all the profits must by law be ploughed back into improving the roads. This was always a fiction, but now, in some parts of the Borough, one only has to look out the window to see how much road surfaces have benefited – not a lot.
Sadly, some of the money raised from the fat Parking Account will go indirectly, to pay for new (wasteful) £90,000 PR job.
At whatever salary this new job is compensated, the incumbent will have their work cut out to put a gloss on some council conduct.
(N.B. motorcycles a generally exempt from CPZs - but not in Islington Borough. The concept of entrapment also extends to cross-border inconsistency: you'd have thought there could be a uniform set of rules in London).
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An update that some people may find useful/interesting/concerning.
Haringey Council rejected my formal representation, they acknowledged that I had sent in a screenshot from their website, but made no mention of the fact that their website showed misleading/wrong information.
This left me needing to go to PATAS. Before doing so I made use of www.forums.pepipoo.com where I was pointed towards this link
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/60521/notices/1835171
I called into Riverside House and asked to look at a copy of the amended traffic orders, which basically states that before 3rd June 2013 an 'event at Finsbury Park' had no definition (I parked in March), and as such no PCNs should have been issued.
The PCN has now been overturned, and when asked why it wasn't overturned earlier, bearing in mind the Council were fully aware of this issue, i was told that I should have appealed initially on the grounds that 'event' had no definition!
The bottom line seems to be with the parking department is that when we make a mistake, they collect our money, and when they make a mistake, they collect our money.
I will be writing to Ann Cunningham for a full explanation, she will undoubtedly as always, pass it on to someone else to provide a standard 'it's not our fault reply'.
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