Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Thameslink Franchise Consultation - Have your say on this
This is worth having a look at and having you say. It will affect the two stations that serve Harringay Ward, Harringay and Hornsey. Do let me have your thoughts either here or at karen.alexander.haringeylibdems@gmail.com
Thameslink Franchise
Introduction
The Department for Transport is consulting on a new franchise covering the existing First Capital Connect Thameslink and Great Northern franchises and the franchise for Southern and some services from the South East franchise. The closing date for the consultation is 23 August. The new franchise [the biggest that has ever been let] would form the basis for the full new Thameslink services expecting to be delivered in 2018.
TfL analysis shows the GN route south of Bowes Park will be standing room only in morning peak services in 2021.
Consultation document attached below. taken from the DoT website.
Proposed Franchise
The franchise is to last for 7 years with a possible 2 year extension. Five bidders have been shortlisted by DfT [Abellio Thameslink, First Thameslink (current franchise holder), Govia Thameslink, MTR Corporation Thameslink and Stagecoach Thameslink]. MTR and First have approached the Council seeking our comments. DfT is expecting to issue the Invitation to Tender [ITT] to shortlisted applicants in October 2012 with the winning bid announced in May 2013 for commencement in September 2013. Southern services would become part of the franchise in July 2015 with South East services by December 2018.
The franchise includes Great Northern services which serve Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay and Finsbury Park stations in Haringey. The GN serves such destinations as Peterborough, Cambridge, Kings Lynn, Stevenage, Welwyn Garden City and Hertford into and out of Kings Cross and Moorgate. Some of the longer distance GN services such as to Cambridge and Peterborough which currently terminate at Kings Cross would transfer to the new Thameslink line through Farringdon and Blackfriars. The DfT raise the possibility of some of the longer distance GN services not serving the Thameslink core route between Kings Cross and Blackfriars could transfer to the new Intercity East Coast franchise but these longer distance services such as to Peterborough and Stevenage would not serve Haringey stations with the exception of Finsbury Park.
Current Services
Current service frequencies for Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey and Harringay are as follows:
Monday to Friday
- Moorgate/Hornsey/Harringay/Alexandra Palace – 6 trains per hour peak and off peak
- Moorgate/Bowes Park – 3 trains per hour peak and off-peak
Saturday and Sunday
- Kings Cross/Hornsey/Harringay/Alexandra Palace – 4 trains per hour
- Kings Cross/Bowes Park – 2 trains per hour
Services to Finsbury Park are very high frequency.
Issues to consider for Consultation Response
- Should the Council be seeking enhanced service frequencies for the GN route?
- What are the priorities for improving customer experience?
- What station improvements should be sought eg ticket offices, gating?
- Is there a need for better cycle parking at Haringey stations?
- Does the current rolling stock meet the needs of passengers? Is there a need for new rolling stock?
- Is there scope for innovative fares or ticketing arrangements?
- Any other comments?
Tags for Forum Posts: first capital connect, great northern line, public transport, trains
- Attachments:
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consultation-thameslink.pdf, 930 KB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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First class - thank you Arkady. Now Lynne F and David L, your turn (I'll flick them a link).
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Permalink Reply by tulips on
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Big thank you to Arkady for doing so much work on this. If trains to Harringay were massively reduced, it would be a disaster, so thanks for your expertise . Let's hope the consultation stage works in our favour.
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Permalink Reply by Karen Alexander on
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Yes, thank you Arkady for all your hard work on this - the draft is excellent. I am continuing to liaise with colleagues on pushing this campaign forward. Lynne F is definitely involved and her office are busily working on this. I'll continue to be involved with that and will submit to the consultation as ward councillor and I'll keep coming back here to update.
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Permalink Reply by 0au62mcjc4khe on
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This is a most interesting and informed discussion on an issue where I thought I was a lone voice at Hornsey, Crouch End and Stroud Green area assemblies. My major concern is that there has been little from Haringey Council on this one, whether from Councillor Nilgun Canver,this issue could be one she might have a little difficulty with, or Officers, my LBH contact has been Malcolm Smith, but some responsibilities have changed.
Clearly the many valid points raised so far MUST be endorsed by LBH. This is something all our councillors on both sides of the railway must get behind, as the DfT, DafT as it is known by rail policy sceptics, does not think about local services, has not fully understood local needs here, nor elsewhere for that matter, and are hostile to TfL, as frankly they seem embarrassed by the relative success of the TfL - London Overground project.
That is a saga in itself and I have started another discussion on the future of the Gospel Oak - Barking line under this Neighbourhood - Improvements section. This is to discuss the lack of electrification, DafT bloody-mindedness, and overcrowding on peak trains, a problem identified by the B-GO Line User Group back in 2007! Present situation impasse! Perhaps we need Boris -v- Justine Greening with pistols at dawn ........
Back to reality and Thameslink GN Line trains. Thank you to Karen Alexander for kicking this off and 'Arkady' for setting out what are the basic issues for passengers from the two stations.
I see the issues very similarly.
1. Dismiss any suggestion of a link up the Parkland Walk. Back in the 90s LT as was tested this as a Crossrail 2 option, continuing trains to High Barnet, restoring the Great Northern route. Not considered worthwhile, and development on the solum in Muswell Hill means it's a 'No'. This discussion goes back 20 years to the Parkland Tram as an alternative to Archway Road widening, and Hugh Rossi being embarrassed at his party's policies. A few years later the Anti-Roads lobby climbed John MacGregor's roof! 11 Onslow Gardens? That's History ...
2. Arcady and others are right, the Inner Suburban services, including the 'Thameslink Inners' should be specified by TfL as part of the Mayor's Rail Network. Moorgate - Gordon Hill - Hertford East - Stevenage, but not necessarily Letchworth, should be a London Overground service, operated like the North London Line. However Thameslink Inners from Welwyn Garden City should not go to Ashford but might go Epsom or Caterham, but these trains must operate basic quarter-hourly services on each section. St Albans to Sevenoaks or Sutton similarly is in the Mayor's rail transport area.
3. Stations at Harringay and Hornsey must be upgraded for 4 platforms. Relatively easy at Harringay southbound towards Moorgate, similarly at Hornsey northbound towards Alexandra Palace. The opposite platforms need more substantial rebuilding and relocating, but again long overdue as the present very basic structures are over 35 years old and past their sell-by and use-by dates.
4. Trains, new or refurbished? The controversy over the German Thameslink trains, means the Moorgate line Class 313 trains need a major overhaul and refurbishment; a life extension for 8 -10 years.
5. The Moorgate line should operate 7 days per week. Drayton Park should be upgraded to accommodate crowds from Arsenal home games. This would be accompanied by a major review of the Hertford Line so a good frequent service is provided, off peak at least every 10 minutes within the GLA area to Gordon Hill, and ideally ever 5 minutes during peaks.
Lastly it might be an idea for interested parties to meet up at a suitable pub or coffee bar to chew this over, hopefully with Councillor Karen Alexander. I have always felt that some form of Rail Users Group is needed for the stations from Finsbury Park to Bowes Park, as these stations have always had the thin end of the wedge.
You can contact me through www.barking-gospeloak.org.uk. In the meantime a new separate rail users section for this blog would be helpful, and get it plugged in the local papers, the stations, libraries etc. This one needs a strong fight.
Richard P
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Permalink Reply by Arkady on
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I also think that an ‘Inner London Great Northern Rail Users Group’ would be a good thing, though I have too many other local commitments to assist much in setting one up. Any excuse to sit in a pub and talk through the issues would be excellent.
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Thanks Richard.
We can set up a a new rail users section in one of two ways. It can either be a group or I can add a new category to the forum. Groups tend not to work so well in my experience, so I'd recommend a new forum category. Then perhaps if demand suggests it's appropriate, we can set up a group later.
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2) - I don't have a view on where Thameslink Welwyn services end up in the south, but I don't see how they can be 'TFL specified'. Their service panel will surely be entirely determined by limitations imposed by their being four of 16-24 trains per hour going through the Thameslink core. I suspect all other inner services - certainly the remaining two Moorgate-Welwyn trains - will be determined by the Thameslink service pattern. That's why the Jacobs consultants recommended that all the inners stay with the Thameslink franchise, though I don't think that logically follows - it is a fixed limitation that a limited franchise or TFL would have to work around.
Broadly agree on all the other points.
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Hi Arcady,
I fully appreciate that here now, our concern is that we want sensible services and the right infrastrure for passengers from Moorgate, St Pancras, Finsbury Park to our four GN local stations. Important to remember that Bowes Park is just in Haringey, and while Finsbury Park station is just in Islington, there are few statistics as to exactly how many Haringey residents get off W3,W7 and 210 buses to get the tube onwards. This balance may change after 2015 with Thameslink trains going fast into the City. Will fewer people use the 'Helter-Skelter' staircase to change at Finsbury Park, this is an unknown as to how many FCC passengers may stay on the train to St Pancras and beyond.
Jacobs as the DfT's Consultant will suggest the Thameslink Inners stay with the main franchise, as their brief leant towards that outcome. Conversely I say 'hence the importance of keeping these trains operating within the Mayor's Greater London Rail Zone'. This issue goes back about 6 years, the DfT consulted on the London regional rail network because of certain clauses in the 1999 GLA Act, and further clauses in the 2005 Railways Act required this.
Simply if you take all of the towns or railway junctions near to the M25 that begin with S, thats Slough, St Albans, Shenfield, Sevenoaks, Surbiton and Staines, and intersperse with towns beginning with W, Watford, Welwyn GC, Ware (Hertford) - the boundary across South London is a bit confused but it does include Warlingham and Whyteleaf (Caterham), and then reaches Slough through Epsom, (but not Staines) you get the 'Mayor's Network. The current row is that FCC wants to use Oyster at Welwyn and St Albans, DafT is blocking it, but has agreed for Abellio Greater Anglia to go to Hertford East! Bonkers!
Now where Thameslink Inners go should ideally be within the Mayors Greater London Zone, so that even if TfL does not take full responsibility for the sevice, it can specify frequencies, fares, Oyster and so-on. Thus having been involved with this lobbying for over 15 years (I got several words changed in the 1999 Act on a Lib-dem motion) TfL's role has been beefed up in the acts, but DfT will do everything they can to circumnavigate the Acts, and thwart or even ignore the Acts. Hence I am hassle-ing over GOB electrification, as DfT are not being entirely honest in their Ministerial briefing. And they are prevaricating over Thameslink too, gold-plating the scheme and pushing the cost up.
I do have certain professional connections, will explain over a drink sometime. Richard P
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As a daily user of the W3 to Finsbury Park, and seeing the W3, W7 & 210 arrive and depart full every few minutes, I’d say the answer is ‘bloody loads’. There must be so many examples. For instance, I work between Pimlico and Westminster, and would take the train from Harringay to Blackfriars and change onto the Circle rather than take the overcrowded bus and overcrowded Victoria Line if I could.
Fascinating stuff. I was aware of the Oyster dispute, and I’ve heard the other side of the argument expressed as well, something like “why should the mayor of London control railway services to Welwyn when residents of Welwyn can’t vote for the mayor”. One suspects that the DfT’s stubbornness has less to do with that and more to do with institutional unwillingness to surrender power, as well as the aforementioned embarrassment at the massive success of London Overground.
East Anglia’s Hertford East & Stanstead service is another good contender for London Overground, along with the Sutton/Wimbledon loop.
Still, though. Wherever the Thameslink Welwyn trains end up, they will probably be four of 16-24 trains per hour, a majority (or even all?) of the remainder of which will end up outside of the mayor’s jurisdiction. Even if the mayor did have jurisdiction, then, I don’t see how he could determine service frequency or timing. We’re talking about a technical limitation. Fares and Oyster are a given within the Oyster zone anyway, of course.
Always keen for beer.
Ben
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