Harringay online

Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

This is worth having a look at and having you say. It will affect the two stations that serve Harringay Ward, Harringay and Hornsey. Do let me have your thoughts either here or at karen.alexander.haringeylibdems@gmail.com


Thameslink Franchise


The Department for Transport is consulting on a new franchise covering the existing First Capital Connect Thameslink and Great Northern franchises and the franchise for Southern and some services from the South East franchise. The closing date for the consultation is 23 August. The new franchise [the biggest that has ever been let] would form the basis for the full new Thameslink services expecting to be delivered in 2018.

TfL analysis shows the GN route south of Bowes Park will be standing room only in morning peak services in 2021.

Consultation document attached below. taken from the DoT website.


Proposed Franchise

The franchise is to last for 7 years with a possible 2 year extension. Five bidders have been shortlisted by DfT [Abellio Thameslink, First Thameslink (current franchise holder), Govia Thameslink, MTR Corporation Thameslink and Stagecoach Thameslink]. MTR and First have approached the Council seeking our comments. DfT is expecting to issue the Invitation to Tender [ITT] to shortlisted applicants in October 2012 with the winning bid announced in May 2013 for commencement in September 2013. Southern services would become part of the franchise in July 2015 with South East services by December 2018.

The franchise includes Great Northern services which serve Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay and Finsbury Park stations in Haringey. The GN serves such destinations as Peterborough, Cambridge, Kings Lynn, Stevenage, Welwyn Garden City and Hertford into and out of Kings Cross and Moorgate. Some of the longer distance GN services such as to Cambridge and Peterborough which currently terminate at Kings Cross would transfer to the new Thameslink line through Farringdon and Blackfriars. The DfT raise the possibility of some of the longer distance GN services not serving the Thameslink core route between Kings Cross and Blackfriars could transfer to the new Intercity East Coast franchise but these longer distance services such as to Peterborough and Stevenage would not serve Haringey stations with the exception of Finsbury Park.


Current Services

Current service frequencies for Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey and Harringay are as follows:

Monday to Friday

  • Moorgate/Hornsey/Harringay/Alexandra Palace – 6 trains per hour peak and off peak
  • Moorgate/Bowes Park – 3 trains per hour peak and off-peak

Saturday and Sunday

  • Kings Cross/Hornsey/Harringay/Alexandra Palace – 4 trains per hour
  • Kings Cross/Bowes Park – 2 trains per hour

Services to Finsbury Park are very high frequency.


Issues to consider for Consultation Response

  1. Should the Council be seeking enhanced service frequencies for the GN route?
  2. What are the priorities for improving customer experience?
  3. What station improvements should be sought eg ticket offices, gating?
  4. Is there a need for better cycle parking at Haringey stations?
  5. Does the current rolling stock meet the needs of passengers? Is there a need for new rolling stock?
  6. Is there scope for innovative fares or ticketing arrangements?
  7. Any other comments?



Tags for Forum Posts: first capital connect, great northern line, public transport, trains

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That’s a good question.  New platforms at H&H aren’t on Network Rail’s current agenda.  I’m assured that service levels can be maintained, either by stopping Thameslink trains there, or by continuing to thread some Hertford Loop and Welwyn-Moorgate trains through the stations (in other words, the two lines might not be fully segregated after all).  The number of peak-time trains on the Hertford Loop will increase, but the added trains will run fast though H&H as some do already.  If you are really interested, I will have a lengthy article up on this subject on Monday at London Reconnections!

Looking forward to it - I've been waiting for your 'part 2' post!

Bit of a saga.  It was originally finished shortly after part 1, and I probably should have just released it then.  But I kept receiving new information requiring significant rewrites, not least of all yesterday’s news.  I fear it’s a bit of a jumble now, but I don’t have the heart to start again from scratch.

I got an email the other week from Lynne Featherstone. A bit of a pat on the back and then the following, to encourage further views.

"The companies shortlisted to take over the new rail franchise are due to submit their bids just before Christmas. Having secured a commitment for no loss of services, I want to make sure their submissions benefit rail users in Haringey as much as possible.

If you have any further ideas or thoughts on how the rail companies could improve rail services here – please reply to this email and let me know."

I sent her an email (see below) and would encourage others to also email her (lynne@lynnefeatherstone.org) with their own thoughts to ensure we get the best service we can.

The points I made were:

1. Under reporting of usage - Do the powers that be even know how many people use Harringay & Hornsey? yes they release statistics, but the amount of people who don't pay for a zone 3 oyster and jump on the train for free is huge - only about 1/3 of users actually touch out at Harringay. This causes reduced services, reduced investment etc. etc. 
2. Suppressed Demand - there is a HUGE suppressed demand at both of these stations - they serve probably the biggest density of population close to central london with no tube line. A higher frequency of services, and crucially more evenly spread service would create much higher demand, more investment, higher frequency etc. IMO related to bullet 1, it is infuriating to see trains going past H&H and not stopping whilst people are 3 deep on the platform waiting for a train that when it arrives is full so have to wait..........

Where do you get your statistics from with regard to fare evasion? Have you considered the other "2/3 of users" might have a weekly/monthly oyster and don't touch in or out? Furthermore, usage statistics based on ticket sales would be readily available to the powers that be from statistics collected from the ticket machines and tfl.gov.uk (you need to choose the pick location i.e. Harringay or Hornsey).

I accept that fare evasion exists but you have no idea whether someone has a valid ticket or not.

Could be that some/many people are zone 1-3 card holders, but by not tapping in/out they distort the stats and therefore reduce the train operating company's income.  I don't sympathise with the TOC here, as they ought to be manning and gating the stations.

I agree stations should be manned and gated but generally people's travelling habbits are the same, at least during the week. Usage statistics should be obtainable at the point of sale as mentioned above (but won't help if H&H is a commuters final destination and they don't tap out).

Lynne has met/is meeting all of the TOC applicants to press the case.

My article here might be worth a look if you haven't seen it already, it has some of the relevant stats:




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