Resurrection of discredited Onside Youth Zone proposal, to be decided very soon! Urgent action needed now - Harringay online2024-03-29T11:32:22Zhttps://harringayonline.com/forum/topics/resurrection-of-discredited-onside-youth-zone-proposal-to-be?commentId=844301%3AComment%3A1061881&feed=yes&xn_auth=noChris, Each and every suggest…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10764292018-04-24T15:26:40.655ZAlan Stantonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/AlanStanton
<p>Chris, Each and every suggestion I made is within the remit of the councillors running Haringey. The Chief Executive, as head of paid service, works to the "leader" and "cabinet". If the latter say so then the rules can be changed accordingly.<br></br><br></br>But just to take one suggestion, the requirement to take notes and minutes and have a proper record of negotiations is simply good professional practice, for the reasons given by Michael Anderson, Ivana Curcic and by me.…</p>
<p>Chris, Each and every suggestion I made is within the remit of the councillors running Haringey. The Chief Executive, as head of paid service, works to the "leader" and "cabinet". If the latter say so then the rules can be changed accordingly.<br/><br/>But just to take one suggestion, the requirement to take notes and minutes and have a proper record of negotiations is simply good professional practice, for the reasons given by Michael Anderson, Ivana Curcic and by me. <br/><br/>"Officialdom" in Haringey does without all that? Then they need to hear that - as from immediately - lax unprofessional bad habits no longer apply. <br/>But in practice staff know this already. Take for example a call from a councillor to some senior member of staff. Admin staff will make a note, and depending on the issue raised, it may be logged as a "Member [councillor] Inquiry". Or there will be an email "trail". <br/><br/>Here's the <em><strong>really</strong></em> interesting question. Why would any senior member of staff meeting or otherwise in discussion as part of legal and financial negotiations with another organisation - as in this case a contract for services; or a lease; or the sale of land; or payment of large sums of cash; - why would they would ever fail to, or choose not to record those contacts?<br/> It makes no sense whatever to me.<br/><br/>Chris how do you run your own business and personal affairs? Have lunch, shake hands, and hope for the best and that nothing goes wrong?</p> Very little of this is likely…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10763082018-04-24T10:58:23.209ZChris Setzhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/ChrisSetz
<p>Very little of this is likely to happen Alan, it's just officialdom. We have plenty of standards, it's just that they're not followed. Haringey signed up to the Government's 'Transparency Code' but they simply don't enact it in practice. Ours is a representative democracy that gives our Cllrs a lot of leeway to 'interpret' emphasis. That's not going to change anytime soon.</p>
<p>What you've left out is a real, everyday commitment to openness that is easily measurable, comparable across…</p>
<p>Very little of this is likely to happen Alan, it's just officialdom. We have plenty of standards, it's just that they're not followed. Haringey signed up to the Government's 'Transparency Code' but they simply don't enact it in practice. Ours is a representative democracy that gives our Cllrs a lot of leeway to 'interpret' emphasis. That's not going to change anytime soon.</p>
<p>What you've left out is a real, everyday commitment to openness that is easily measurable, comparable across councils - 'open data'. Our Council is high on some league tables and low on others. Openness is just one measure. It's a political decision, borne I guess of years of crap thrown at them by the media, starting in the Bernie Grant era when it was particularly vicious. understandable then, that a culture of batten-down-the-hatches has festered.</p>
<p>Some London Councils are better at being open than others but it's really in America that they're far ahead. There's not that much difference between here and there in how most stuff is run. Obama appointed a Chief Technology Officer for the USA who recruited volunteer 'brigades' who are still busy creating open systems to run councils from. They set standards we are obliged to follow, as they do in most areas of tech. All open source and so free of licence costs, constant imnprovements also being free. </p>
<p>I see the Council as maintainers of a wide range of databases, almost all of which they could open to residents. I want the open data 'dashboard' many other Councils maintain:</p>
<p><a href="http://dashboard.leedsdatamill.org/canvas/leeds-city-council" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><img width="721" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2162879948?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721" class="align-full"/></a></p>
<p>If you look a the amount of open data Haringey provide it's the absolute minimum - mainly monthly spending data that is incredibly opaque. </p>
<p>Open data is the basis for a sea-change in culture and the biggest anti-corruption weapon but it'll only happen if the new leadership want it and it's not even on their agenda as far as I can tell. As Cllrs, they don't seem to 'get' the modern tech-savvy world and, at best, follow along lamely - have you looked at <a href="http://maps.haringey.gov.uk/LBHinternet/i4lg/pages/main/main.jsp" target="_blank" rel="noopener">the Council mapping facility</a> recently? Dreadful. Been stuck that way for years.</p>
<p>A sad thing is, open data using open source software is way cheaper than the way they do things now. Successive Chief Execs, where they even consider it, always make the right noises but nothing happens, the Council is still locked into gargantuan, privately owned software packages that limit what they can do to what the private sector will accept payment for.</p>
<p>It's as if they somehow feel they don't need the free and open tools that others use to run similar organisations - they can get along without any IT scrutiny (let alone input) from us. Why don't they have a user group of residents driving their website? Not interested. </p>
<p>That culture would change if more 'normal' people choose to step forward but with people like you constantly hating on the council, adding to the powerful 'small state' propaganda vomited forth by the billionaire-owned mainstream media, is that really likely?</p> Alan your sweeping characteri…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10764822018-04-24T10:22:35.152ZChris Setzhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/ChrisSetz
<p>Alan your sweeping characterisations of the entire council lets you down. We both want better but broad condemnations do the cause no good at all. You write (above): </p>
<p>"<span>In my view all Haringey councillors and residents should, as far as possible, have unbiased professional advice from staff who work for the Council and </span><em><strong>solely</strong></em><span> serve the interests of the borough and its residents. Not serving the interests of lobbyists; nor developers; nor…</span></p>
<p>Alan your sweeping characterisations of the entire council lets you down. We both want better but broad condemnations do the cause no good at all. You write (above): </p>
<p>"<span>In my view all Haringey councillors and residents should, as far as possible, have unbiased professional advice from staff who work for the Council and </span><em><strong>solely</strong></em><span> serve the interests of the borough and its residents. Not serving the interests of lobbyists; nor developers; nor contractors or would-be contractors. Nor the careers of politicians."</span></p>
<p><span>These are empty phrases and feel like 'virtue-signalling'. Of course we all want everything to be perfect, who wouldn't? Whose interests are served is a matter of opinion, bounded by the law. It's a politicians trick to try to move the debate towards matters of opinion so that they become central to it but you don't have that mandate. If it's quis custodiet ipsos custodes then it can't be you, or me, or anyone here on HoL can it, Alan?</span></p>
<p><span>There are well-established governance controls in place. You want to put yourself above the process and act as judge and jury on each specific instance. We pay councils to do this stuff for us, it's seditious of you to seek to undermine the process. </span></p>
<p><span>Here's more of your comments :"normalised the practice of negotiations and deals with businesses or contractors without proper records or accountability. Including chats over dinners, or private meetings with shadow Boards or simply just meetings."</span></p>
<p><span>This is pure propaganda. How many meetings are conducted like this, 1%? 10%? Yes of course it's far too many but to characterise the entire council as corrupt ('normalising') is wrong and, as usual with you, damaging, doing nobody any good. So you think that having bad meetings helps other Cllrs also have them do you? You must know some of our Cllrs almost as well as you know your partner (a serving Cllr) so you'll know this is a nasty slur and not worthy of you.</span></p>
<p><span>Here's more:"Secrecy by default. A rotten unaccountable behind-the-curtain system; which needs to stop whichever party or parties win."</span></p>
<p><span>You more than most (having been a long-serving Cllr here) should know that Councils are more open than they have ever been - it's just damaging and nasty to portray our Council processes as 'rotten'. Parts of it are bad in every Council. Cllrs are people and some are rotten, some even end up in prison - we've come to accept that Cllrs and politicians generally are as flawed as the rest of us. We can't operate a system where nobody behaves badly, it's never been possible.</span></p>
<p><span>Abuse of power should come as no surprise.</span></p>
<p><span>In fact Councils are far better run and more open than the private sector, who can go bankrupt one day and start up again the next. You're helping those who call for Central Government to oppress local Councils even further and that's a nasty party idea.</span></p>
<p><span>Councillors are far more honourable than Board Directors, for example and paid far less. They're not in it for the money, it's a vocation - public service is a fine, honourable thing to undertake on everybody's behalf and your red mist makes it harder to encourage more people to step forward. Look at our UK Banks who, since the 2008 recession have been <a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://www.ft.com/content/71cee844-7863-11e7-a3e8-60495fe6ca71" target="_blank">fined more than £35bn</a> for rotten, corrupt behaviour. That's real and needs real attention. Councils are perfect in comparison.</span></p>
<p><span>The worst thing you do is condemn people, and you do it all the time. A fundamental tenet of our society is that people are innocent until proven guilty and I'm so sorry I have to even remind you of that. </span></p>
<p><span><iframe width="475" height="267" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GWlCGSoYkFo?wmode=opaque" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
</span></p> Alan, these are excellent sug…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10763062018-04-24T10:10:36.850ZIvana Ćurčićhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/IvanaCurcic
<p>Alan, these are excellent suggestions! And I am all for collaboration!</p>
<p>Alan, these are excellent suggestions! And I am all for collaboration!</p> And maybe we can have a cross…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10765782018-04-24T10:05:50.979ZAlan Stantonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/AlanStanton
<p>And maybe we can have a cross-party approach to end all the bad practices which seem to have become the "new normal" at the top of Haringey Council. <br></br><br></br>● Including agreement to adopt best practice on record keeping and minute-taking. <br></br>● Agreement to end secret decision-taking pre-meetings which make a mockery of Council meetings and public "deputations".<br></br>● An end to the outgoing regime's highly restrictive approach to freedom of information even when required by statute. And…</p>
<p>And maybe we can have a cross-party approach to end all the bad practices which seem to have become the "new normal" at the top of Haringey Council. <br/><br/>● Including agreement to adopt best practice on record keeping and minute-taking. <br/>● Agreement to end secret decision-taking pre-meetings which make a mockery of Council meetings and public "deputations".<br/>● An end to the outgoing regime's highly restrictive approach to freedom of information even when required by statute. And also practice restricting councillors' "Right to Know" under Common Law and confirmed in our Council's Constitution. <br/>● An end to the Propaganda Unit and instead a real Information Team. <br/>● And of course an end to free dinners, free gifts, free hotels and foreign trips with or paid for by contractors or potential contractors. <br/> <br/>Here again there's a sound model: the Nolan Principles of Public Life. Haringey needs to apply them in practice instead paying lip-service.<br/><br/>We might then find that more people come forward to become councillors who don't just see it as a step in their brilliant future as an MP or whatever. And perhaps more Haringey electors will bother to vote because they see it as making a real difference.<br/><br/>These suggestions just for starters.</p> I really hope the culture and…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10764772018-04-24T10:04:56.575ZIvana Ćurčićhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/IvanaCurcic
<p>I really hope the culture and attitude change. There has to be more accountability and thus transparency.</p>
<p>I really hope the culture and attitude change. There has to be more accountability and thus transparency.</p> Billy, you are correct that m…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10764762018-04-24T09:52:18.664ZIvana Ćurčićhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/IvanaCurcic
<p>Billy, you are correct that my position is that public land should not become private property. But aside from that, I am not against youth centres and OnSide. OnSide seems to be doing a decent job in smaller cities, but their record in London is not as good. And for all the reasons mentioned above, only one youth centre of these proportions is not a solution for Haringey at this moment.</p>
<p>Now, there is also a precedent of how the Council has dealt with OnSide charity, when last year…</p>
<p>Billy, you are correct that my position is that public land should not become private property. But aside from that, I am not against youth centres and OnSide. OnSide seems to be doing a decent job in smaller cities, but their record in London is not as good. And for all the reasons mentioned above, only one youth centre of these proportions is not a solution for Haringey at this moment.</p>
<p>Now, there is also a precedent of how the Council has dealt with OnSide charity, when last year they had agreed (again without informing interested parties, so all hush-hush rush-rush) to build a youth centre in Chestnuts Park. The Council was going to lease the land of 2400m2 for £1 for 90 years -- not quite private property but certainly a bargain deal for OnSide. This was taken from meeting minutes when they existed. </p>
<p>It is not just about form but substance and transparency and democratic process.</p> Billy I've tried to get Cllrs…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10765772018-04-24T09:46:55.050ZChris Setzhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/ChrisSetz
<p>Billy I've tried to get Cllrs to ensure minutes of external meetings are at least taken (if not published) and it hasn't worked. </p>
<p>Eventually they provided an excuse I couldn't overcome. They told me that they have no control over 'third party' minute taking. In other words, if a Cllr meets say, a Charity, it's up to the Charity to take the minutes and if they don't, it's not the Cllrs fault.</p>
<p>I don't accept this hogwash but was not able to get past it. There used to be a Cllrs…</p>
<p>Billy I've tried to get Cllrs to ensure minutes of external meetings are at least taken (if not published) and it hasn't worked. </p>
<p>Eventually they provided an excuse I couldn't overcome. They told me that they have no control over 'third party' minute taking. In other words, if a Cllr meets say, a Charity, it's up to the Charity to take the minutes and if they don't, it's not the Cllrs fault.</p>
<p>I don't accept this hogwash but was not able to get past it. There used to be a Cllrs 'Charter' binding conduct that all Cllrs had to sign as a condition of employment - that might be a way forward.</p> It's not "very few minutes",…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10764032018-04-24T09:19:07.629ZAlan Stantonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/AlanStanton
<p>It's not "very few minutes", John. With Onside, councillors have been told there are NO minutes of meetings. <br/><br/>Great stuff, eh? Public land; long leases, Public cash; current and future obligations. Private meetings; no paperwork; no minutes.<br/><br/>Jack's been to the market and returned with a few magic beans.</p>
<p>It's not "very few minutes", John. With Onside, councillors have been told there are NO minutes of meetings. <br/><br/>Great stuff, eh? Public land; long leases, Public cash; current and future obligations. Private meetings; no paperwork; no minutes.<br/><br/>Jack's been to the market and returned with a few magic beans.</p> This will be another of the c…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-24:844301:Comment:10764692018-04-24T09:02:04.368ZJohn McMullanhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/bogan72
<p>This will be another of the council leader's legacy. Lots of meetings, very few minutes, no lunch bills.</p>
<p>This will be another of the council leader's legacy. Lots of meetings, very few minutes, no lunch bills.</p>