Haringey traffic boss starts Ladder traffic review following engagement by local group - Harringay online2024-03-28T18:47:31Zhttps://harringayonline.com/forum/topics/haringey-traffic-boss-makes-ladder-traffic-letter-maildrop-follow?commentId=844301%3AComment%3A1414001&feed=yes&xn_auth=noIf you look at the daily tota…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-19:844301:Comment:14181552021-03-19T19:26:58.418ZMichael Andersonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/17bathgate
<p>If you look at the daily totals before (January)and after the bridge works start (May) on the data sheet there’s hardly any difference in the number of buses journeys. There were also major works in the City of London by Monument affecting the 141 and on Camden Road affecting the 29 at the time</p>
<p>If you look at the daily totals before (January)and after the bridge works start (May) on the data sheet there’s hardly any difference in the number of buses journeys. There were also major works in the City of London by Monument affecting the 141 and on Camden Road affecting the 29 at the time</p> Sorry, have only just caught…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-19:844301:Comment:14180262021-03-19T18:32:03.331ZDonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/DonKeller
<p>Sorry, have only just caught up with this. Yes, anecdotal evidence is hard to quantify. But I’d add that a) if TfL’s figures only include completed journeys in Green Lanes, they may not include buses turned back at Finsbury Park or the Salisbury (which by definition weren’t completed journeys), b) counting only the 141 doesn’t allow for different service frequencies for the 29 and hence different patterns of disruption. I was a frequent enough user of both services to experience both…</p>
<p>Sorry, have only just caught up with this. Yes, anecdotal evidence is hard to quantify. But I’d add that a) if TfL’s figures only include completed journeys in Green Lanes, they may not include buses turned back at Finsbury Park or the Salisbury (which by definition weren’t completed journeys), b) counting only the 141 doesn’t allow for different service frequencies for the 29 and hence different patterns of disruption. I was a frequent enough user of both services to experience both incredible slowness of services and many curtailments. My memory — obviously anecdotal again — was that it didn’t get noticeably better after the first two weeks, and there were constant complaints on HoL throughout the whole 5 months, for what it’s worth.</p>
<p>More generally, there is the question of where the domino effect stops. If road blocking in Crouch End goes ahead, displaced traffic (according to the Council’s own maps) will divert down Wightman. If the Ladder and St Ann’s become LTNs as well, this CE traffic will then have to join these areas’ traffic on Green Lanes — or just all be displaced further east into Tottenham (potentially ultimately onto the M11?). This doesn’t sound like a solution, just buck-passing — and a recipe for complete seizure of GL.</p>
<p>Removing parking in GL as mitigation, as suggested elsewhere, would presumably help all this extra traffic flow more easily, but also turn GL into an urban motorway. Last time I looked, pre-pandemic, the Ladder roads all had solid car-parking on both sides of the road (unlike St Ann’s roads, which almost always had spaces because car ownership is reportedly much lower here than in Harringay ward), so where would GL parkers put their now-unwelcome vehicles without driving round two LTNs looking for any available space?</p>
<p>I’m certainly not defending car use willy-nilly (not least as a non-driver myself), but I still think LTNs are favoured as a cheap fix which gets brownie points for the Council, which appears to be doing something, in place of more holistic solutions that need to be considered at a London-wide level.</p> Thanks, I'll search on HoL Bu…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-12:844301:Comment:14166672021-03-12T21:05:03.753ZAlan Stantonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/AlanStanton
<p>Thanks, I'll search on HoL <br/>But maybe the important "moral" is what residents can do now and in the future? <br/>Traffic engineers have their "toolbox" and measurements. Those generate useful basic information. But there must also be a place for what residents' see and hear and experience. Local "wisdom".</p>
<p>Thanks, I'll search on HoL <br/>But maybe the important "moral" is what residents can do now and in the future? <br/>Traffic engineers have their "toolbox" and measurements. Those generate useful basic information. But there must also be a place for what residents' see and hear and experience. Local "wisdom".</p> At the time I think I posted…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-12:844301:Comment:14167432021-03-12T18:13:52.444ZJulieBhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/JulieBartley
<p>At the time I think I posted it on HoL and I definitely sent it to someone at the Council.</p>
<p>At the time I think I posted it on HoL and I definitely sent it to someone at the Council.</p> Thanks, JulieB. That tends to…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-12:844301:Comment:14162322021-03-12T15:56:30.989ZAlan Stantonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/AlanStanton
<p>Thanks, JulieB. That tends to support my point. The camera lens can often "see" from the viewpoint of a driver or a walker. Or in the example you give, record the obstructions and blooms that block their viewpoint.<br></br><br></br>I realise it can be a faff but I've found it worthwhile to make and email-in such photos. It's possible that someone sensible might not only fix a signage problem but also learn from it. <br></br>I also confess to enjoy spotting signs with spelling mistaeks. Or which face…</p>
<p>Thanks, JulieB. That tends to support my point. The camera lens can often "see" from the viewpoint of a driver or a walker. Or in the example you give, record the obstructions and blooms that block their viewpoint.<br/><br/>I realise it can be a faff but I've found it worthwhile to make and email-in such photos. It's possible that someone sensible might not only fix a signage problem but also learn from it. <br/>I also confess to enjoy spotting signs with spelling mistaeks. Or which face the wrong way. Or give directions to buildings and services which no longer exist. One Haringey roadside sign was (still is?) so thickly layered by graffiti that its original purpose could serve only to puzzle a passing archaeologist.</p> Yes I remember taking a pictu…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-12:844301:Comment:14164392021-03-12T13:22:49.970ZJulieBhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/JulieBartley
<p>Yes I remember taking a picture of the 'advance warning sign' at the beginning of Warham Road. It was behind 2 other signs and a tree in full bloom, I had to really search for it and I knew what was going on!</p>
<p>Yes I remember taking a picture of the 'advance warning sign' at the beginning of Warham Road. It was behind 2 other signs and a tree in full bloom, I had to really search for it and I knew what was going on!</p> Dick, I'm not challenging you…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-12:844301:Comment:14164292021-03-12T11:59:32.940ZAlan Stantonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/AlanStanton
<p>Dick, I'm not challenging your overview; nor your suggestion about the retained data and its possible reuses. As you say, the work and expense to collect the previous data should if possible be available for further study and any insights it offers.<br></br><br></br>However my point was from a different angle. Traffic Engineers, Planners, the Degeneration staff and others come and go. And so do many residents. But they are, in the Anarchist saying, the "wearers who know where the shoe pinches".…</p>
<p>Dick, I'm not challenging your overview; nor your suggestion about the retained data and its possible reuses. As you say, the work and expense to collect the previous data should if possible be available for further study and any insights it offers.<br/><br/>However my point was from a different angle. Traffic Engineers, Planners, the Degeneration staff and others come and go. And so do many residents. But they are, in the Anarchist saying, the "wearers who know where the shoe pinches". <br/><br/>So cameras and smartphones are tools which for residents, can add useful evidence. And maybe help to tilt the power balance a little towards residents when faced with a 101 Council where local residents' views observations and opinions are often assumed to be wrong.</p> I quite agree that the long c…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-12:844301:Comment:14164862021-03-12T09:38:38.021ZDick Harrishttps://harringayonline.com/profile/DickHarris
<p>I quite agree that the long closure of Wightman Road could be seen as a valuable experiment. It was quite long enough for drivers to adjust their habits after the initial period of confusion (which was pretty dramatic). The intensive and expensive collection of traffic data took place during two widely separated weeks, one before and one during the closure. The second week was well after the initial period of confusion and I believe that much more could have been made of the data…</p>
<p>I quite agree that the long closure of Wightman Road could be seen as a valuable experiment. It was quite long enough for drivers to adjust their habits after the initial period of confusion (which was pretty dramatic). The intensive and expensive collection of traffic data took place during two widely separated weeks, one before and one during the closure. The second week was well after the initial period of confusion and I believe that much more could have been made of the data collected. The leading professional consultant involved said that he had never seen such a comprehensive mass of data collected for a traffic study and, in my view, it was a pity that more comprehensive analysis of it was not made (perhaps it was but not published). This could, of course, still be done and there are many possibilities. For example, it would be good to see an estimate of the volume of vehicle movements that arise exclusively from ladder residents themselves and deliveries to them. Also, an estimate of how many vehicle movements on ladder rungs arise from people parking just of Green Lanes. Perhaps the council could employ a postgrad to reanalyse the data as part of an MSc thesis.</p> Anyone take photos of that pr…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-12:844301:Comment:14164792021-03-12T08:05:11.550ZAlan Stantonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/AlanStanton
<p>Anyone take photos of that problem? Or mapped it? Anybody got copies of emails sent and replies? With outcomes?<br></br><br></br>In other words, on what were ongoing - in effect - unintended but potentially valuable <em><strong>experiments</strong>,</em> how much was recorded, can be retrieved/dug out from the record; and learned from. Any indication of what was learned and by whom? <br></br><br></br>I'm sure that many people realised - maybe immediately, maybe slowly - that cheap, simple and easy digital…</p>
<p>Anyone take photos of that problem? Or mapped it? Anybody got copies of emails sent and replies? With outcomes?<br/><br/>In other words, on what were ongoing - in effect - unintended but potentially valuable <em><strong>experiments</strong>,</em> how much was recorded, can be retrieved/dug out from the record; and learned from. Any indication of what was learned and by whom? <br/><br/>I'm sure that many people realised - maybe immediately, maybe slowly - that cheap, simple and easy digital photography, combined with cheap storage, was a huge and positive change. But only if embraced with enthusiasm.</p>
<p>Especially as audio and video was added to the mix. And with very large numbers of people going round with a tiny but powerful computer in their pocket which had all those functions.</p> Julie, they didn’t even get t…tag:harringayonline.com,2021-03-12:844301:Comment:14164662021-03-12T03:22:38.540ZMichael Andersonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/17bathgate
<p>Julie, they didn’t even get the signage right at the bottom of the the Ladder roads right. It took a lot of emails and phone calls to get ones that told motorists that if they went up, they would go no where!</p>
<p>Julie, they didn’t even get the signage right at the bottom of the the Ladder roads right. It took a lot of emails and phone calls to get ones that told motorists that if they went up, they would go no where!</p>