Green Lanes Transport Study - Final Report - Harringay online2024-03-29T00:22:59Zhttps://harringayonline.com/forum/topics/green-lanes-transport-study-final-report?feed=yes&xn_auth=noOne thing that hasn't been me…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10364572017-11-20T22:58:32.523ZAndrewAW1https://harringayonline.com/profile/Andrew499
<p>One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that it isn't really in the council's interest to stop Wightman Road being a major conduit given that, in the next 10 years or so, there are plans to build a lot of houses/flats just north of Wightman Road and Wightman Road has been identified as a major access route for some of these developments.</p>
<p>They can't really do anything that may cause issues with the traffic as they have to be able to show it can cope with the additional…</p>
<p>One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that it isn't really in the council's interest to stop Wightman Road being a major conduit given that, in the next 10 years or so, there are plans to build a lot of houses/flats just north of Wightman Road and Wightman Road has been identified as a major access route for some of these developments.</p>
<p>They can't really do anything that may cause issues with the traffic as they have to be able to show it can cope with the additional capacity.</p> Thanks Joe. The lack of accur…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10363932017-11-20T21:39:42.540ZDanhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Dan612
<p>Thanks Joe. The lack of accuracy estimations (% journeys captured) is conspicuous by its absence. This is based heavily on loose projections. </p>
<p>I can't find the details on the raw data on bikes/cars/HGVs for every street from that link. It's a lot of maps. But let's not split hairs on that. Life's too short!</p>
<p>My point here is - I think this could have been done better. A lot better for £200,000! I am sure we all want the same thing! Less bloody traffic and pollution!…</p>
<p>Thanks Joe. The lack of accuracy estimations (% journeys captured) is conspicuous by its absence. This is based heavily on loose projections. </p>
<p>I can't find the details on the raw data on bikes/cars/HGVs for every street from that link. It's a lot of maps. But let's not split hairs on that. Life's too short!</p>
<p>My point here is - I think this could have been done better. A lot better for £200,000! I am sure we all want the same thing! Less bloody traffic and pollution! Thanks!</p>
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<p></p> Hi Dan - the main reference d…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10362812017-11-20T21:21:23.397ZJoeWhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/joew
<p>Hi Dan - the main reference document on the page I linked to is <a href="http://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/gl_existing_conditions_note_updated-280917.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/gl_existing_conditions_note_updated-280917.pdf</a> - the ANPR origin-destination matrices are in Appendix A of that.</p>
<p>I agree manual counts may not be wholly objective but they can be corroborated at least to some extent by the ANPR and sensor…</p>
<p>Hi Dan - the main reference document on the page I linked to is <a href="http://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/gl_existing_conditions_note_updated-280917.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/gl_existing_conditions_note_updated-280917.pdf</a> - the ANPR origin-destination matrices are in Appendix A of that.</p>
<p>I agree manual counts may not be wholly objective but they can be corroborated at least to some extent by the ANPR and sensor counts. And yes there were indeed sensors on every street. They give counts and speed and vehicle type (bike/car/HGV etc.), with a margin of error. The raw data was made available and Living Wightman published some other analysis here <a href="http://www.livingwightman.org/p/data.html" target="_blank">http://www.livingwightman.org/p/data.html</a></p>
<p>I think the car ownership % comes from the last census, so again no doubt has a margin of error. We can do some rough sense checks though, say by counting parked cars on the local streets at 1am on Sunday morning.</p>
<p>As I say no one is really arguing about the objectivity of the data. There are >1000vehicles/hour on a narrow residential street, the council is unwilling to do anything to reduce it.</p> You are absolutely right abou…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10362802017-11-20T21:20:06.758ZMichael Andersonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/17bathgate
You are absolutely right about needing empirical data to formulate solutions. My biggest disappointment with the report however is it’s failure to identify the problems. For this simply opening your front door, looking, listening and smelling the air is a good start
You are absolutely right about needing empirical data to formulate solutions. My biggest disappointment with the report however is it’s failure to identify the problems. For this simply opening your front door, looking, listening and smelling the air is a good start I would agree that the consu…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10362382017-11-20T20:12:52.437ZDanhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Dan612
<p> I would agree that the consultants have only done what has been asked of them. Here are my queries about the evidence. Sorry, there's very little about evidence in the link you have added Joe.</p>
<p>1. Manual counting is not objective and subject to human bias. It's indicative at best.</p>
<p>2. Are sensors on almost every street (is this >% 80% of streets have this sensor?)? This is only for counting also? </p>
<p>3. Has ANPR really been used to monitor all vehicles in the area and has…</p>
<p> I would agree that the consultants have only done what has been asked of them. Here are my queries about the evidence. Sorry, there's very little about evidence in the link you have added Joe.</p>
<p>1. Manual counting is not objective and subject to human bias. It's indicative at best.</p>
<p>2. Are sensors on almost every street (is this >% 80% of streets have this sensor?)? This is only for counting also? </p>
<p>3. Has ANPR really been used to monitor all vehicles in the area and has data to show source and destination? Can you provide the source to how this is done? I've never seen this kind of technology used at this scale before - it would be great to learn more! It's great to see LBH leading the way with urban traffic monitoring at this scale!</p>
<p>4. Car ownership comes from the LTDS? Isn't this stated pref?</p>
<p>I get the issues. I'd love to hear more about the good quality of evidence, which I am not convinced by. I annoyingly don't see how this methodology offers a solution (counting cars and surveys) and can understand so much of the frustration about the traffic here. The efforts of the community have been nothing short of awesome. </p>
<p>It's a real pity there's very little in the way of solutions. In my humble opinion.</p>
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<p></p> I agree, the problem is not t…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10361292017-11-20T19:13:32.336ZJoeWhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/joew
<p>I agree, the problem is not the quality of the evidence but the council's unwillingness to draw the obvious conclusions from it.</p>
<p>I think the consultants Steer Davies Gleave have largely been pretty thorough and transparent about the process. Most of the evidence is in their "Existing Conditions" report - on <a href="http://www.haringey.gov.uk/transport/green-lanes-area-transport-study" target="_blank">http://www.haringey.gov.uk/transport/green-lanes-area-transport-study</a></p>
<p>It…</p>
<p>I agree, the problem is not the quality of the evidence but the council's unwillingness to draw the obvious conclusions from it.</p>
<p>I think the consultants Steer Davies Gleave have largely been pretty thorough and transparent about the process. Most of the evidence is in their "Existing Conditions" report - on <a href="http://www.haringey.gov.uk/transport/green-lanes-area-transport-study" target="_blank">http://www.haringey.gov.uk/transport/green-lanes-area-transport-study</a></p>
<p>It does refer to LTDS data (i.e. diary-type surveys), but also a massive amount of objective data from automated (axle-pressure) sensors on almost every street, manual counts at key junctions, and automated numberplate recognition (ANPR) of all vehicles entering and leaving the survey area.</p>
<p>So there is evidence corroborated by various objective sources for example that over 50% of our traffic is not local (passes straight through), (unsurprising given that local car ownership is about 40%), that Wightman Road has over 1000 vehicles/hour all day - a constant stream of traffic which is actually higher than several neighbouring A-roads - and that the majority of this is rat-runners seeking to avoid the Green Lanes junctions with Endymion Road or Turnpike Lane, by using a section of Wightman Road plus a Ladder "rung"-road, because Green Lanes itself is massively dysfunctional - largely because of local traders' intransigence over parking and loading needs, plus some sub-optimally located traffic lights and bus stops.</p>
<p>Haringey Council supposedly has a strategy "to minimise the use of our back streets as rat-runs" (see <a href="http://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/1267.11_transport_strategy_a4_12pp_final_web_0.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/1267.11_transport_strategy_a4_12pp_final_web_0.pdf</a>)but is unwilling to implement it in this area.</p> Too true, but in this instanc…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10363662017-11-20T16:08:33.853ZMichael Andersonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/17bathgate
Too true, but in this instance the evidence hasn’t led to policy making that recognises the evidence at all!
Too true, but in this instance the evidence hasn’t led to policy making that recognises the evidence at all! Thanks Michael. This is a con…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10362612017-11-20T15:03:57.073ZDanhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Dan612
<p>Thanks Michael. This is a constant problem with evidence-based policymaking.</p>
<p>Thanks Michael. This is a constant problem with evidence-based policymaking.</p> I don’t know the methodology…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10362262017-11-20T14:39:26.505ZMichael Andersonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/17bathgate
I don’t know the methodology they used Dan
I don’t know the methodology they used Dan And sophisticated enough to…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-11-20:844301:Comment:10362242017-11-20T13:27:33.656ZDanhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Dan612
<p><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"/></p>
<p>And sophisticated enough to tell whether a % of us were walking or cycling, and our journey start and end points.</p>
<p>There is new tech out there that can do this, but it needs really clever research design to implement and remove bias. They were not using it.</p>
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<p><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"/></p>
<p>And sophisticated enough to tell whether a % of us were walking or cycling, and our journey start and end points.</p>
<p>There is new tech out there that can do this, but it needs really clever research design to implement and remove bias. They were not using it.</p>
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