17 questions about Haringey Council's gift of public land to OnSide Youth Zones charity. - Harringay online2024-03-28T11:49:38Zhttps://harringayonline.com/forum/topics/17-questions-about-haringey-council-s-gift-of-public-land-to?id=844301%3ATopic%3A976905&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks, John D, for pointing…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-25:844301:Comment:10769842018-04-25T13:56:00.450ZAlan Stantonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/AlanStanton
<p>Thanks, John D, for pointing out that absurdity. (Just noticed it again doing some filing.) <br></br>My understanding is that, legally, Local Authority Scrutiny cannot be whipped. And should not have been whipped to force them to vote or speak against Scrutiny recommendations. Or to try preventing them calling-in a decision of the "Cabinet". <br></br><br></br>And even if I am wrong and there is some get-out clause which gives a Leader power to do this, with a majority of 49-8 it should not have been…</p>
<p>Thanks, John D, for pointing out that absurdity. (Just noticed it again doing some filing.) <br/>My understanding is that, legally, Local Authority Scrutiny cannot be whipped. And should not have been whipped to force them to vote or speak against Scrutiny recommendations. Or to try preventing them calling-in a decision of the "Cabinet". <br/><br/>And even if I am wrong and there is some get-out clause which gives a Leader power to do this, with a majority of 49-8 it should not have been used. Or even thought about.<br/> That degree of control freakery should tell people all they need to know about who was doing any alleged bullying under Kober and her pals' dysfunctional regime.</p> See my new thread on this for…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-02-22:844301:Comment:10613432018-02-22T11:05:04.124ZCerihttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Ceri
<p>See my new thread on this for updates and responses. <a href="http://www.harringayonline.com/forum/topics/resurrection-of-discredited-onside-youth-zone-proposal-to-be?commentId=844301%3AComment%3A1061042&xg_source=msg_com_forum" target="_blank">http://www.harringayonline.com/forum/topics/resurrection-of-discredited-onside-youth-zone-proposal-to-be?commentId=844301%3AComment%3A1061042&xg_source=msg_com_forum</a></p>
<p>Please use that thread to respond to this comment below…</p>
<p>See my new thread on this for updates and responses. <a href="http://www.harringayonline.com/forum/topics/resurrection-of-discredited-onside-youth-zone-proposal-to-be?commentId=844301%3AComment%3A1061042&xg_source=msg_com_forum" target="_blank">http://www.harringayonline.com/forum/topics/resurrection-of-discredited-onside-youth-zone-proposal-to-be?commentId=844301%3AComment%3A1061042&xg_source=msg_com_forum</a></p>
<p>Please use that thread to respond to this comment below too. </p>
<p>Just one correction to my post above, I've now realised that this might not have to be brought to the March Cabinet meeting, the Cabinet decision made to go ahead with Onside in principle, subject to the report of a Working Group, a year ago hasn't been rescinded. I would imagine (and hope) that the next meeting of the Labour group of councillors on 27 Feb would discuss it and make sure everyone is aware of the pitfalls of the model. There could of course be a challenge given that I don't think the Working Group ever met or reported. </p> Doesn't matter. The conclusio…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-02-22:844301:Comment:10612532018-02-22T10:12:08.494ZJohn Dhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/JohnD
<p>Doesn't matter. The conclusions of the Scrutiny Panel have no weight with the Council overlords, when the members of the Panel can be whipped to vote against their own recommendations.<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Frown.gif"/></p>
<p>Doesn't matter. The conclusions of the Scrutiny Panel have no weight with the Council overlords, when the members of the Panel can be whipped to vote against their own recommendations.<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Frown.gif"/></p> I've also just realised that…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-02-22:844301:Comment:10611262018-02-22T09:45:18.849ZCerihttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Ceri
<p>I've also just realised that of course it doesn't formally need to go to Cabinet as the Cabinet decision to do it a year ago probably wasn't rescinded when the Chestnuts proposal fell, and so it could in theory stand, although it would of course be contrary to the current spirit of pausing controversial decisions given the change of climate. I've amended my post above to rectify my mistake. Possibly the only control over the decision could be the next Labour group meeting on 27 Feb where I…</p>
<p>I've also just realised that of course it doesn't formally need to go to Cabinet as the Cabinet decision to do it a year ago probably wasn't rescinded when the Chestnuts proposal fell, and so it could in theory stand, although it would of course be contrary to the current spirit of pausing controversial decisions given the change of climate. I've amended my post above to rectify my mistake. Possibly the only control over the decision could be the next Labour group meeting on 27 Feb where I think all the current Labour councillors have a vote, plus of course people making their views clear to councillors. </p> One problem is that it may no…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-02-22:844301:Comment:10612502018-02-22T09:37:40.996ZLucihttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Luci
<p>One problem is that it may now dodge Scrutiny (as in the Scrutiny Panel)</p>
<p>One problem is that it may now dodge Scrutiny (as in the Scrutiny Panel)</p> Thanks. I understand that the…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-02-21:844301:Comment:10608362018-02-21T16:40:37.624ZCerihttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Ceri
<p>Thanks. I understand that there have been quite a few "lunches" and informal meetings about this...</p>
<p>Do let your local councillors know if you don't support this and ask them to oppose, before this coming Tuesday. </p>
<p>The proposal absolutely won't stand up to scrutiny, which is why it fell down before. </p>
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<p>Thanks. I understand that there have been quite a few "lunches" and informal meetings about this...</p>
<p>Do let your local councillors know if you don't support this and ask them to oppose, before this coming Tuesday. </p>
<p>The proposal absolutely won't stand up to scrutiny, which is why it fell down before. </p>
<p></p> New post on Onside - a propos…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-02-21:844301:Comment:10610892018-02-21T15:36:04.662ZCerihttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Ceri
<p>New post on Onside - a proposal which has been dug out of the long grass.... I've also started a new thread on this. I'll follow replies in both locations. </p>
<div class="discussion"><div class="description"><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I have heard via Twitter and minutes of the November 17 Children and Young People Scrutiny Panel <a href="https://t.co/4gH4Ykmpyp" rel="nofollow">https://www.minutes.haringey.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=756&am...</a> that the Haringey Cabinet…</p>
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<p>New post on Onside - a proposal which has been dug out of the long grass.... I've also started a new thread on this. I'll follow replies in both locations. </p>
<div class="discussion"><div class="description"><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I have heard via Twitter and minutes of the November 17 Children and Young People Scrutiny Panel <a rel="nofollow" href="https://t.co/4gH4Ykmpyp">https://www.minutes.haringey.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=756&am...</a> that the Haringey Cabinet at its last meeting before "purdah" on 6th March is planning to decide to dish out money to Onside! Apparently this will involve £3m cash plus annual revenue to Onside to build a YouthZone in the grounds of Woodside School! After all the exposure to the myriad faults of the Onside model listed on this thread above, it seems unbelievable that this is happening. </p>
<p>It will involve Metropolitan Open Land.</p>
<p>There has been no competitive tendering of the project.</p>
<p>The Board of Onside remains the same as it was when first exposed in this thread, 9 white men, 1 white woman. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.onsideyouthzones.org/about-us/our-board/">http://www.onsideyouthzones.org/about-us/our-board/</a></p>
<p>The 17 questions I originally posted on this thread about Onside still pertain more or less without change. Because they were never answered, and indeed were unanswerable, the Onside proposal for Chestnuts Park or anywhere in the borough was kicked into the long grass. But it seems to have been dug up again, for a final throw in the very last days of this Council regime. What is going on? A small Labour member only Working Party was set up for the Chestnuts Onside Proposal but the proposal fizzled out before it could meet. </p>
<p>The recent Haringey Labour Party manifesto conference voted to include a commitment to fund local youth services - not a massive investment in just one centre, on one site. </p>
<p>Onside nationally have long wanted to get into a school. But till now no local authority could be found foolish enough to believe that any youth centre for a whole borough or town can be located in one secondary school. Everyone knows that just won't work, as shown by all evidence. </p>
<p>If anyone else knows more about this latest resurrection, please let me know here or by email! I might update the 17 questions to apply to this Woodside proposal.</p>
<p>It doesn't seem right to me that this scarce resource of £3m should be given to Onside. Given the current Cabinet won't be in power after May, any decision about this must at least be paused, as with the doomed HDV. Because the Cabinet decision is imminent, we need to make sure that all councillors are fully briefed asap. </p>
<p>All advice welcome.</p>
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</div> "I can maybe offer potential…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-04-18:844301:Comment:9785852017-04-18T12:58:27.412ZAlan Stantonhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/AlanStanton
<p>"I can maybe offer potential fixes"... "it seems to me that the problem" ... "I don't think that..." ... "I think it's the other way round" ... "acting as a critical friend" ... "needs knowledge" ... "I doubt"... "probably ... "<span>So I'm guessing"... "I'm guessing"... "disconnect between the political aims and the reality". "Doubtless Cllrs are proud of them and stand fully behind them - motherhood and apple pie".... "However, when it comes to the reality"..."I bet"... "doubtless" ...…</span></p>
<p>"I can maybe offer potential fixes"... "it seems to me that the problem" ... "I don't think that..." ... "I think it's the other way round" ... "acting as a critical friend" ... "needs knowledge" ... "I doubt"... "probably ... "<span>So I'm guessing"... "I'm guessing"... "disconnect between the political aims and the reality". "Doubtless Cllrs are proud of them and stand fully behind them - motherhood and apple pie".... "However, when it comes to the reality"..."I bet"... "doubtless" ... "</span>It seems"... "<span>It often seems to me"... "I don't think any one person is to blame" ... "probably aware of more issues than I am"..."If I'm right" .... "I hope what I write helps" ... "we all want is beneficial change"<br/><br/>Chris, have you ever considered the possibility that a few facts might be helpful?<br/></span></p> Too late to edit the post - I…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-04-18:844301:Comment:9787462017-04-18T11:50:59.997ZChris Setzhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/ChrisSetz
<p>Too late to edit the post - I meant to quote from Bill Green's book to illustrate the commercial impetus behind OnSide. Bob Holroyd did not write the book I wrongly attributed to him, though I suppose he shares the sentiment exactly. Sorry for confusing things.</p>
<p>Too late to edit the post - I meant to quote from Bill Green's book to illustrate the commercial impetus behind OnSide. Bob Holroyd did not write the book I wrongly attributed to him, though I suppose he shares the sentiment exactly. Sorry for confusing things.</p> Hi Anne, I'd like to understa…tag:harringayonline.com,2017-04-18:844301:Comment:9787442017-04-18T11:22:53.350ZChris Setzhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/ChrisSetz
<p>Hi Anne, I'd like to understand what goes wrong so that I can maybe offer potential fixes.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the problem lies somewhere in the Council Officers realm. I don't think any Cllr went to Officers and said 'we're giving OnSide a contract' - I think it's the other way round.</p>
<p>The only practical way forward I can see is to supplement Council activites by getting involved in a way that really helps, and that starts with understanding the reality (given that our Council…</p>
<p>Hi Anne, I'd like to understand what goes wrong so that I can maybe offer potential fixes.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the problem lies somewhere in the Council Officers realm. I don't think any Cllr went to Officers and said 'we're giving OnSide a contract' - I think it's the other way round.</p>
<p>The only practical way forward I can see is to supplement Council activites by getting involved in a way that really helps, and that starts with understanding the reality (given that our Council insists on 'commercial confidentiality' to cloak everything in secrecy that doesn't even allow FOIs so we can't even learn lessons).</p>
<p>This means acting as a 'critical friend' to the department concerned - to do that needs knowledge of the domain - it seems incredible to that we should have to do work ourselves that we pay our Cllrs to do for us, but what else can we do?</p>
<p>-------------------------------</p>
<p>OnSide, acording to their website, is a charity founded by Bob Holroyd:</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.onsideyouthzones.org/about-us/our-board/" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.onsideyouthzones.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/006-23-02-20151-e1457001116548-300x300.jpg" class="align-center"/></a></p>
<p>His describes himself as a 'serial entreprenuer' who has a book out. In Bob's <a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.amazon.com/All-Business-Lessons-Emerging-Entrepreneurs/dp/1633934640/" target="_blank">All In: 101 Real Life Business Lessons for Emerging Entrepreneurs</a> he writes:</p>
<p>"You have the Big Idea. You have the drive and ambition. You see the market. You’ve identified the customers. You want to be wildly successful. You wonder how certain entrepreneurs have achieved success without a fancy education or unlimited access to capital".</p>
<p>In the book Bob uses his own impressive business achievements (and his few fiascos) to provide the reader with the practical tools needed to launch that Big Idea or improve their existing business.</p>
<p>"In his own unique, humorous, and impassioned style, Bob shares 101 key insights he has gleaned over a 40-year business career that began with a flea market table. He explains, step by step, what it took to leverage his flea market business into a small hardware store, and then morph that store into Interline Brands, a distribution empire.</p>
<p>Bob’s goal: “I want to inspire entrepreneurs of all ages and levels of experience to take up the challenge of a small business with passion and joy.”</p>
<p>--------------------------------------</p>
<p>I doubt Bob has much day-to-day contact with OnSide, he probably only provides the ethos. OnSide has someone called Rob Carter (rob.carter@onsideyouthzones.org) who probably has LBH on his books - from the OnSide website:</p>
<p><span>"Rob leads on the design, procurement and delivery of new Youth Zones. He has previous professional experience of commercial property transactions and development agreements and provides an additional level of project management in terms of Youth Zone design and liaison with the professional teams."</span></p>
<p><span><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.onsideyouthzones.org/about-us/out-team/" target="_blank"><img src="https://www.onsideyouthzones.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Rob-Carter-300x300.jpg" class="align-center"/></a></span></p>
<p><span>So I'm guessing Rob makes contact with a senior LBH Officer (ideally a Head of Department if he can get to one) and, after a preliminary 'chat' or two, makes an application - in effect an offer, in order to ramp up OnSide's fortunes.</span></p>
<p><span>I'm guessing OnSide's offer is couched in terms that the Council find hard to refuse because he knows the statutory obligations and other pressures they're under, having been through this loop with other Councils, and frames the offer as if his was the only way to approach Youth provision, gaining him the huge advantage of being the market leader in his niche.</span></p>
<p><span>Such a narrow offer can only be properly satisfied by OnSide, so 'comparatives' become almost impossible - you can only get OnSide from OnSide. OnSide become the obvious, unchallengeable choice. A head of department always votes precious funds to evaluating 'options' - they need to cover their backs. It's almost as if they throw a little cash down to sanctify the path they've already decided to tread. They'll find examples where balance has been applied and rejected any alternatives, thereby fully endorsing the course they're already set on. Then it's TINA - 'There is No Alternative'</span></p>
<p><span>LBH budget is so tight I doubt very much whether any scheme, particularly such a 'small' one (in LBH terms) could ever justify the expensive operation of a comprehensive look at the needs and possible solutions (something Cllrs should be constantly doing). LBH just react to whatever offer comes along on a firefighting basis - they don't have time for anything else, due to the cuts. So OnSide will doubtless use their experience elsewhere to shape their offer as a wedge that can be leveraged into 'scope creep' to win more business later on.</span></p>
<p><span>If this is the case it highlights to me one of the biggest problems I see - the disconnect between the political aims and the reality. Council documents are full of wise words about high-quality principles. One specific-to-Haringey one that jars with me being <em><strong>People at the Heart of Change</strong></em> (as in <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/haringey_local_plan_strategic_policies_-_march_2013_intro_ch_1.pdf" target="_blank">the local plan</a>). These policies are supposed to act as the main instruction to our <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/corporate_equality_profile_june_2016.pdf" target="_blank">2300 LBH civil servants</a> in implementing schemes. They are set by the Labour group in their electoral manifesto every four years and supplemented by loads of principled statements on practically every issue conceivable. Doubtless Cllrs are proud of them and stand fully behind them - motherhood and apple pie.</span></p>
<p><span>However, when it comes to the reality, Council principles and aspirations are so vague as to have nothing specific to offer, can be bent to any case and further, are 'interpreted' by people who are divorced from the politics that underlie them. Those civil servants have a duty to be non-political so don't think the same way Cllrs do. It's almost as if policy was an umbrella under which the pragmatic reality is hidden from view.</span></p>
<p><span>When it comes to Youth Policy or Green Spaces Policy or whatever applies to Chestnuts, I bet the Officers do what most of us would do - see it as a chance to practise their own expertise and ignore the politics as much as possible. So an offer by commercially-driven entities like OnSide who understand the inner workings of Council departments can easily be seen as the only practical solution. Effectively this is a direct byproduct of the sabotage severe cuts bring about - no money to take the long view, even though it's the long view that is really, really needed and is vastly cheaper.</span></p>
<p><span>Let's face it, central government want Councils to fail so their power and influence can be reduced in favour of the smaller state, so have driven Councils crazy by destabilising local internal systems that are designed to balance. In other words, there isn't the money there used to be to treat Youth Provision, for instance, holistically so they get forced into accepting whatever is easiest for Civil Servants, which isn't necessarily what is best for the Borough and can be very harmful to it.</span></p>
<p><span>Officers doubtless examined the deal and maybe even talked to Rob about various aspects, maybe even causing a new submission to be made. They then maybe report to a more senior LBH Director, who may have a formal and/or informal word with a cabinet member before going through the motions.<br/></span></p>
<p>It seems our Cllrs cannot do the job we think they do and 'police' the Council, nor can they usually steer away from any major long-term flaws that might be pointed out to them because almost all of the things they could do rest on matters of opinion. I've noticed how quickly Cllrs want to bring any argument round to a matter of opinion because they all seem to see themselves as arbitrators of opinion. They seem to feel it's their job to decide things on behalf of the public that elected them, conveniently forgetting that most don't vote, so how do they know the opinion of the silent majority?</p>
<p><span>Cllrs do know that if they can bring the situation to the point where it's 'who'se opinion counts in the end' they can win because they think it's up to them to have the final say. In fact, they are carried along by circumstance and end up picking from a limited range of choices imposed on them by the process the Civil Service are obliged to wrap things in. </span></p>
<p><span>It often seems to me uncanny how Cllrs seem to act in a way that feels as if someone else was pulling their strings. I think they have two puppet masters - the Cabinet, who won't hear a word said against any of the policies they've derived and use them as a stick to beat any Cllr who is seen to depart from them, and Council Officers, who seem to me to be the real, lasting power behind the throne. </span></p>
<p><span>I don't think any one person is to blame or is doing anything they shouldn't, in fact just the opposite, they all have the best of intentions are probably aware of more issues than I am.</span></p>
<p><span>It's just that they have made mistakes they won't acknowledge, are doing things wrong today and will continue to mess things up unless they change. The only real change possible is to share more of the burden with interested residents, to be open enough to include us in their decision making and arm us with the facts they are so good at keeping to themselves, and to implement a system where objections are not seen as hurdles to be overcome but as potential life-savers. It's something that's only become possible in the last decade or so because if the incredible increase in the quality and ease of communications. Some councils are taking up the challenge - ours generally are not.</span></p>
<p><span>If I'm right that understanding the process is key to helping improve it, then I hope what I write helps. After all, what we all want is beneficial change - for that to work, it'll have to be rooted into the existing system in an evolutionary way.</span></p>
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